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Author | Topic: Moral Relativism | |||||||||||||||||||||||
w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
In restarting this thread, you asked the question,
"what is the source of moral precepts?" Now it is obvious from your first post in this thread that you think such precepts come from human societies. In that post you said:
"There exists no source of moral absolutes." In the absence of such sources, human societies must use their judgement to arrive at rules everyone can live by that allow for the greatest quality of life for all members. Your reasoning confuses me. You claim that societies "must" develop rules that give the greatest quality of life to everyone, but is it possible that you only think this because it fits the morality of your society? Why must a society have rules which conform to your concept of morality? What is to prevent them from forming their own ideas of right and wrong? What if they decide that only a privileged few should experience the greatest quality of life? How can you say that this is wrong? What absolute do you use to defend the imposition of your standard of morality on an independent society?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
I think that they do this Who does this? Out of all the nations in the world, how many follow your standard of morality?
if they don't develop morals in that way, they don't survive. So are you saying that any society whose system of morality differs from yours will be unable to survive?
because the disenfranchised people they rely on to do work don't stick around. Really? Is it not possible for the "disenfranchised" to view their position as morally rewarding and thus well worth any physical loss or suffering?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
the universal method by which systems of morality are determined Are you saying that there is a universal standard which determines how human societies develop their moral structures and that the survival of these societies is dependent on their moral conformity to that universal standard?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
Societies that pick morals that disenfranchise large portions of their populations don't survive. Societies that pick morals that make as many people as possible as happy and fulfilled as possible tend to survive. So then are some moral structures better than others in that they allow more people to survive? If so, then which standard of morality do you propose is best? Which standard creates the greatest chance of survival?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
Are you saying that some morals are good because they produce happiness and survival while some morals are bad because they produce suffering and death?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
You have clearly stated that:
societies either gravitate towards those morals that produce happiness, or else they don't survive. This statement then begs the question, what is the source of happiness? Solomon also sought this question in the book of Ecclesiastes. Here is what he found.
What profit hath a man of all his labour which he taketh under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 1:3) There is no remembrance of former things; neither shall there be any remembrance of things that are to come with those that shall come after. (Ecclesiastes 1:11) I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: (Ecclesiastes 1:13) I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 1:14) I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 1:17) I said in mine heart, Go to now, I will prove thee with mirth, therefore enjoy pleasure: and, behold, this also is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 2:1) I was great, and increased more than all that were before me in Jerusalem: (Ecclesiastes 2:9) Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 2:11) There is no remembrance of the wise more than of the fool for ever; seeing that which now is in the days to come shall all be forgotten. And how dieth the wise man? as the fool. Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun is grievous unto me: for all is vanity and vexation of spirit. (Ecclesiastes 2:16-17) Yea, I hated all my labour which I had taken under the sun: because I should leave it unto the man that shall be after me. And who knoweth whether he shall be a wise man or a fool? (Ecclesiastes 2:18-19) For there is a man whose labour is in wisdom, and in knowledge, and in equity; yet to a man that hath not laboured therein shall he leave it for his portion. This also is vanity and a great evil. (Ecclesiastes 2:21) For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19) Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive. Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 4:2-3) There is one alone, and there is not a second; yea, he hath neither child nor brother: yet is there no end of all his labour; neither is his eye satisfied with riches; neither saith he, For whom do I labour, and bereave my soul of good? This is also vanity, yea, it is a sore travail. (Ecclesiastes 4:8) He that loveth silver shall not be satisfied with silver; nor he that loveth abundance with increase: this is also vanity.(Ecclesiastes 5:10) Seeing there be many things that increase vanity, what is man the better? For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? (Ecclesiastes 6:11-12) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. (Ecclesiastes 7:29) The misery of man is great upon him. For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be? (Ecclesiastes 8:6-7) There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it. (Ecclesiastes 8:8) All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:2-3) For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them. (Ecclesiastes 9:12) A man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him? (Ecclesiastes 10:14) Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 12:8) For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. (Ecclesiaste 7:20) Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; (Ecclesiastes 12:1) In the day of prosperity be joyful, but in the day of adversity consider: God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him. (Ecclesiastes 7:14) For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: (Ecclesiastes 9:1) Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (Ecclesiastes 12:13-14) It is good that thou shouldest take hold of this; yea, also from this withdraw not thine hand: for he that feareth God shall come forth of them all. (Ecclesiastes 7:18) Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man’s heart discerneth both time and judgment. (Ecclesiastes 8:5) Thus Solomon claims that happiness and survival comes from obedience to God. You claim that human societies must develop morals that produce happiness, and with this I agree. Let me ask you then, can you present for us a single society which has adopted such morals independent of the Word of God? I am presenting the following two articles as an example of a society that followed the advice of Solomon and adopted the morals of the Bible as absolute. This choice produced a happiness throughout the entire society that was reported of in newspapers around the globe. Can you present a single non-Christian society which has produced such reports as these? http://www.welshrevival.org/histories/shaw/08.htm http://www.welshrevival.org/histories/shaw/11.htm
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
It doesn't beg the question at all, because it doesn't matter what the source of happiness is. How can one devise a system of morality which will provide happiness if he doesn't know how that happiness is obtained? He cannot. Thus your statement begs the question of the source of happiness.
did you miss at the bottom of your first article: quote: It is very important when reading or presenting evidence that it be kept in context. For example take the following comment by John Wesley.
In the evening, very unwillingly, I went to a Society in Aldersgate street where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter past nine, while Luther was ddescribing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did, at that moment, trust in Christ alone for salvation, and an assurance was given me on the spot that He had taken away my sins, even mine, and had thus saved me from the law of sin and death. Now if one were to quote this comment without the first sentence, it would seem that John Wesley came to salvation under the ministry of Martin Luther. This is obviously incorrect, and if quoted in this manner, the entire statement would be viewed as false. However, the inclusion of the first sentence makes the context clear and the quote less dubious. By the same token, please notice that the quote you presented was preceeded by the following statement.
quote: When viewed in this context the comment that you quoted is seen as the belief of the author regarding the condition of those who try to mix the two opposing value systems of the world and heaven. It is not a report of the state of those who have whole heartedly embraced the Christianity of the Welsh revivals.
I submit that you have failed to present a society that was happy with God's word. Let me ask you - does Wales still cleave to the Word to this day? Or did that society decide that they wanted something else? I have presented a society that obtained widespread happiness through an adherence to God's Word; however, as you have pointed out, Wales does not have this same happiness today. Why not? You have already provided the explanation. The society that exists in Wales today has chosen to disregard God's Word: they have left the source of happiness. Societies consist of individual people not of lands or countries. Thus the country of Wales cannot be said to be the same society that presided over that country one hundred years ago. Today they are a distinctly different society because they are distinctly different people; and, as such, they must make their own decision to chose or reject that system of morality which will produce the greatest amount of happiness. The Welsh revivals are evidence that a society can find greater happiness through obedience to God's Word than through adherence to any other moral system. If you have any evidence to the contrary, please present it.
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
I stated:
quote: You have asked:
How do you explain that Nigeria is the happiest nation currently if what it takes is following God's word? By asking this question, do you mean to claim that the happiness in Nigeria is equivalent to, if not greater than, that happiness which existed in Wales at the beginning of the twentieth century?
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w_fortenberry Member (Idle past 6134 days) Posts: 178 From: Birmingham, AL, USA Joined: |
Crashfrog,
You haven't established that Wales was happy, just that they followed God's word. Please notice that I have presented evidence for the happiness of Wales during the Welsh revivals. I have shown that your only rebuttal of that evidence was taken out of context. I have requested that you present any evidence that you may have which contradicts my evidence. You have not presented any such evidence. Therefore, my statement and evidence still stand unrefuted. Do you have anything to present as a refutation of my position?
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