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Author Topic:   Moral Relativism
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 196 of 284 (130840)
08-05-2004 7:55 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by sidelined
08-05-2004 4:07 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
Why do all of you doubt this ability when the very person you claim has forgiven you your sins {but only if you really believe which you cannot do UNLESS you believe with all your heart

I would not say that you have to believe with all your heart in order to have your sins forgiven and be saved. That is probably impossible in this life. What you need to do is try your best to believe and let God transform that partial beleive into true belief. To truly believe we need supernatural help! Hence Mark 9:24 - "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!"


If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 4:07 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:27 PM General Nazort has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 284 (130848)
08-05-2004 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by General Nazort
08-05-2004 7:55 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
GN

I would not say that you have to believe with all your heart in order to have your sins forgiven and be saved.

Yes but christ did not require great belief for you to accomplish this.All he said you needed was

If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed

So come on! Surely one of you has this.If not I ask you what the hell do you defend with such vigour.Your egos? Your sanity?
This is the thing you say you dedicate your life to. I cannot tell the extent of your commitment as I do not know you.But you guys and gals surely know yourselves and is not one of you committed enough to actually implement faith the size of a mustard seed?

You could render all this dialogue a moot point by one simple act.I do not know about the others here but a mountain,let's say Mt.Baker in Washington state doing a nose dive into the ocean off Port Angelas would break my atheist mindset in irreparable pieces,not to mention the publicity it would engender.

What is stopping you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by General Nazort, posted 08-05-2004 7:55 PM General Nazort has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 8:34 PM sidelined has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 198 of 284 (130850)
08-05-2004 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 197 by sidelined
08-05-2004 8:27 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
What is stopping you?

FAITH.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:27 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:42 PM jar has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 284 (130854)
08-05-2004 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by jar
08-05-2004 8:34 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
jar

Interesting.Care to elaborate?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 8:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 8:53 PM sidelined has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 200 of 284 (130857)
08-05-2004 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by sidelined
08-05-2004 8:42 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
There is no need to prove anything. No imperative.

And we also have faith that what happens will be something we can endure.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 8:42 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 9:50 PM jar has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 284 (130864)
08-05-2004 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by jar
08-05-2004 8:53 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
jar

So dont use to prove anything. Do it in private and never mention it to a soul.Christ said the power is yours and is it moral to withhold its use in the sparing of tragedy and hunger?
I mean it is your power given to you do with it as you please but why would you consider it a problem to use it? Why would christ mention it unecessarily? He could just as easily have said it another way but he did not.

Move mountains heck just walk into a cancer ward and heal sick children, remove pain from victims in the burn ward.{you want to see suffering visit one of those}.Are you believing I am trying to tempt you fine do what you need to make it right in your head but for pity's sake why would you wait?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 8:53 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 9:52 PM sidelined has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 202 of 284 (130865)
08-05-2004 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by sidelined
08-05-2004 9:50 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
Getting way OT.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 9:50 PM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by sidelined, posted 08-05-2004 10:02 PM jar has not yet responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 203 of 284 (130869)
08-05-2004 10:02 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by jar
08-05-2004 9:52 PM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
jar

Yes I agree. Perhaps I will begin a new thread on this soon but I am off to another province starting next week for about 8 days so I may wait till then.Bloody hell we have been going over the field between this topic and that other one LOL

Good to bat things back and forth mate.I think I am going to ease up for the rest of the night or I may end up going longer and interupting my beauty sleep.{ a desperate need if ever there was one.}
Take care and we will see you back here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by jar, posted 08-05-2004 9:52 PM jar has not yet responded

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 284 (131135)
08-06-2004 9:35 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by nator
08-05-2004 8:57 AM


Re: Won't accept forgiveness?
I said: However, when you ask a question like "what is more important being forgiven by humans or being forgiven by God" I am going to answer what is more important in the eternal scheme of things.

Schraf replied: And again, I will say that this stance is not as good for our society, and thus less moral, because you are more concerned with youself than you are with others.

Ultimately, that's a self-centered attitude.

It is not a self-centered attidtude. When we ask for forgiveness from God and recieve the gift of eternal life, we start the transformation from our wicked, self-centered natures into the nature of Christ, who was the very opposite of self-centeredness. Once we have begun this transformation, we can begin to share with others the good news of eternal life and lead them to eternal life as well.

If we asked for forgiveness from humans instead of from God, neither us nor the humans we wronged would get to heaven. If we ask for forgiveness from God, we are able to start sharing about how to get to heaven with them, and us AND maybe the humans we shared with will also get to heaven.

So asking for forgiveness from God is ultimately better for other people around us - it is helping secure their eternal destiny, thus it is NOT being self centered,, but rather caring about waht happens to others as well.

Just READ the New Testament and look at the teachings. EVERYWHERE it says to do good to others, to help the poor, to love one another. Is this being self-centered? By no means!

It has been said that giving the penalty of your sins to Jesus is just passing off our reponsiblity to the God "we claim to love," even if it is a freely offered gift. Hear this: it is MORE than a freely offered gift; God WANTS us to do it, he GREATLY DESIRES for us to give our sins to Him! We claim to love God. If I love someone, I want to make them happy, right? It makes God happy when we trust in Him for eternal life!


If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by nator, posted 08-05-2004 8:57 AM nator has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 454 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 205 of 284 (131302)
08-07-2004 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by nator
08-04-2004 9:13 PM


Re: Nope
bump

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nator, posted 08-04-2004 9:13 PM nator has not yet responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12972
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 206 of 284 (132003)
08-09-2004 4:46 PM


It is always preferable to have a good guide with you when venturing into unknown territory. And, for the guide, it is easier if those he is guiding cooperate with him rather than compete with him.

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 284 (132540)
08-10-2004 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by bob_gray
08-05-2004 11:19 AM


Re: Nope
bob_gray says:

Jar’s reply not withstanding I think it is possible to look at the “morality” of a society to some degree. For example, it could be argued that the German society from 1937 to 1945 was less moral than ours because they had a much higher rate of government sponsored murder.

I think we can all agree that some societies are more "moral" than others, for example Nazi Germany compared to the USA.

Now for the next step. Allow me to quote CS Lewis:

"The moment you say that one set of moral ideas can be better than another, you are, in fact, measuring them both by a standard, saying that one of them conforms to that standard more nearly than the other. But the standard that measures two things is something different from either. You are, in fact, comparing them both with some Real Morality, admitting that there is such a thing as a real Right, independent of what people think, and that some people's ideas get nearer to that real Right than others... if the Rule of Decent Behavior meant simply 'whatever each nation happens to approve,' there would be no sense in saying that any one nation had ever been mroe correct in its approval; than any other; no sense in saying that the world could ever grow morally better or morally worse."

I know that many of you are going to argue that this "Real Morality" is simply what makes the most people the most happy. But I strongly disagree. Take homosexual marriage, for example. The majority of people in the United States oppose gay marriage - it would make more people happy if gay marriage is stopped than it would make people happy if gay marriage is allowed. Does this make banning gay marriage the moral thing to do? Consider this same situation reversed: suppose the majority of people in the US supported gay marriage. Is it now moral to allow it?

Suppose there is a country with 100 million people. Suppose that 90% of the population of this country would love to kill the other 10% because of something like the hair or skin color of the 10% minority. The 90% majority would go into a fit of happiness if they could kill the 10%. This is the way to get the most happiness for the most amount of people. Does this make it the morally right thing to do?


If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by bob_gray, posted 08-05-2004 11:19 AM bob_gray has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-10-2004 9:36 PM General Nazort has responded
 Message 232 by bob_gray, posted 08-12-2004 10:32 PM General Nazort has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 208 of 284 (132548)
08-10-2004 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by General Nazort
08-10-2004 9:23 PM


Re: Nope
I think we can all agree that some societies are more "moral" than others, for example Nazi Germany compared to the USA.

Are you sure about that?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 9:23 PM General Nazort has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:15 PM jar has responded

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 209 of 284 (132561)
08-10-2004 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by jar
08-10-2004 9:36 PM


Re: Nope
Are you sure about that?

Fairly. Are you in any real doubt that the US is more moral than Nazi Germany was?


If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by jar, posted 08-10-2004 9:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by jar, posted 08-10-2004 10:28 PM General Nazort has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 210 of 284 (132566)
08-10-2004 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by General Nazort
08-10-2004 10:15 PM


Re: Nope
Bob Gray had the answer. You need to pay attention to him.

And now for your question relative to the US vs Nazi Germany.

Would you say that invading a peaceful nation that posed no threat what so ever, conquering it and making the monarch abdicate was moral?

What about invading a country, creating a rebellion just to supporting a phony succession to get property rights?

What about forcably removing tens of thousands of people from their homes simply to steal their assets?

What about commiting genocide?

Are those moral acts?

Edited to add:

It's all relative.

This message has been edited by jar, 08-10-2004 09:29 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:15 PM General Nazort has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by General Nazort, posted 08-10-2004 10:42 PM jar has responded

  
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