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Author Topic:   Moral Relativism
nator
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 241 of 284 (133841)
08-14-2004 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by General Nazort
08-12-2004 10:51 PM


Re: Nope
quote:
As for homosexualy marriage, I disagree than banning it would harm homosexuals.

Do you think it was harmful to mixed race couples to ban them from getting married?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by General Nazort, posted 08-12-2004 10:51 PM General Nazort has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 242 of 284 (133843)
08-14-2004 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by General Nazort
08-13-2004 12:05 AM


So what is absolute morality?
I've asked that question before but so far no one has been able to show that absolute morality.

Can you show it to us?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by General Nazort, posted 08-13-2004 12:05 AM General Nazort has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by General Nazort, posted 08-15-2004 7:09 PM jar has responded

  
General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 284 (134143)
08-15-2004 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by jar
08-14-2004 2:18 PM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
So what is absolute morality?

Absolute morality is that which you ought to do in a given situation.


If you say there are no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure about that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by jar, posted 08-14-2004 2:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 7:14 PM General Nazort has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 244 of 284 (134148)
08-15-2004 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by General Nazort
08-15-2004 7:09 PM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
Absolute morality is that which you ought to do in a given situation.

So it depends on the situation? In one situation something might be absolutely moral but in a different situation the same action might be absolutely immoral?

Is that realtively what you are saying?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by General Nazort, posted 08-15-2004 7:09 PM General Nazort has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-15-2004 11:04 PM jar has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3192 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 245 of 284 (134196)
08-15-2004 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by jar
08-15-2004 7:14 PM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
I think you're missing the point.

Morality is COMPLETELY situationally oriented. IOW the distinction between right and wrong depends entirely on the situation.

The point is that a particular action in a particular situation cannot be BOTH right and wrong at the same time depending on who is observing.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 7:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 11:09 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 246 of 284 (134199)
08-15-2004 11:09 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by Hangdawg13
08-15-2004 11:04 PM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
How was your trip, guy? Hope you had a great one. How about a coffeehouse narative for us, with pictures. Remember, if there are no pics it never happened.

IOW the distinction between right and wrong depends entirely on the situation.

So you are saying it is absolutely relative to the situation?

The point is that a particular action in a particular situation cannot be BOTH right and wrong at the same time depending on who is observing.

Save that one for phase two.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-15-2004 11:04 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-16-2004 12:28 AM jar has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3192 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 247 of 284 (134227)
08-16-2004 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by jar
08-15-2004 11:09 PM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
How was your trip, guy? Hope you had a great one. How about a coffeehouse narative for us, with pictures. Remember, if there are no pics it never happened.

It was awesome! We had a ton of fun.

I spose I could do that after I get the pictures off of my friend's computer tomorrow.

So you are saying it is absolutely relative to the situation?

Umm... Yes? Some situations are always alike. Some are more complicated. But in any moral situation something is right and something is wrong.

Save that one for phase two.

Alright... whatever that is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by jar, posted 08-15-2004 11:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-16-2004 12:31 AM Hangdawg13 has responded
 Message 251 by nator, posted 08-16-2004 7:02 PM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 248 of 284 (134229)
08-16-2004 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Hangdawg13
08-16-2004 12:28 AM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
Alright... whatever that is?

Well, it's conceivable that there could be a situation where both sides are moral. Unfortunately in life, there are shades of gray (or grey).


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-16-2004 12:28 AM Hangdawg13 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-16-2004 1:52 AM jar has responded

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3192 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 249 of 284 (134237)
08-16-2004 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by jar
08-16-2004 12:31 AM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
I think I see what you are saying.

For example, in the civil war:

A Virginian might be fighting to maintain freedom, status quo, and his state's sovereignty. A Yankee might be fighting to preserve the unity of the nation and end the South's form of slavery.

On the battlefield, both could fight and die honorably in the right even though the war itself may be wrong.

Many situations are unique and every variable must be considered to determine whether an action is right or wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by jar, posted 08-16-2004 12:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by jar, posted 08-16-2004 10:09 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

    
jar
Member
Posts: 31485
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 250 of 284 (134295)
08-16-2004 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 249 by Hangdawg13
08-16-2004 1:52 AM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
Very, very good, sir. An excellent example. Once again, I salute you.

So to the Thread Title. Is Morality Relative, depending on society, time, place and environment?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-16-2004 1:52 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 456 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 251 of 284 (134453)
08-16-2004 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by Hangdawg13
08-16-2004 12:28 AM


Re: So what is absolute morality?
Welcome back.

Just so it doesn't get missed...

a reply to message 183, please.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-16-2004 12:28 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

    
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 3192 days)
Posts: 1161
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 252 of 284 (134577)
08-17-2004 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by nator
08-04-2004 9:13 PM


Re: Nope
It evolved along with all the other social senses and emotions we have as a means to communicate and interact with each other, and they also tend to maintain clan or group identification.

I will drop the whole evolution debate within this debate, since I currently have no position on evolution.

Of course, the Christian may be less willing to fight and die for virtues and beliefs because they believe that they are "saved", and thus guaranteed a place in heaven.

Being saved is no excuse for being a coward, and I don't know of any specific case of someone becoming more cowardly BECAUSE they were saved.

or because they do not believe they have to do good works towards their fellow man to earn their place in heaven.

There is much said to warn believers of taking this mindset particularly in James. If one does not love and forgive his neighbor he does not love God.

Ah, but yes, I can certinly objectively show you evidence to suggest that a sense of right and wrong are products of evolution.

Yes, that's some very interesting information, but what does it have to do with the relative existence of right and wrong? Even the animals have a sense for it. What's right is right. What's wrong is wrong. You can't get away from it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by nator, posted 08-04-2004 9:13 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by CK, posted 08-17-2004 5:07 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded
 Message 256 by nator, posted 08-18-2004 6:24 PM Hangdawg13 has responded

    
CK
Member (Idle past 2414 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 253 of 284 (134578)
08-17-2004 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Hangdawg13
08-17-2004 5:01 AM


Re: Nope
Even the animals have a sense for it. What's right is right. What's wrong is wrong. You can't get away from it.

If I cooked and give you human flesh to eat, would you take it?

if not, why not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Hangdawg13, posted 08-17-2004 5:01 AM Hangdawg13 has not yet responded

  
contracycle
Inactive Member


Message 254 of 284 (134596)
08-17-2004 6:16 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by Sleeping Dragon
08-13-2004 5:10 AM


quote:
So....what if you do? Are you going to steal from A and not from B simply because A can afford to be stolen from? To me, your argument is very much invalid and I can't see how it could be otherwise.

Exactly so. That illustrates my point: the NOMINAL impact which someonbe MIGHT suffer is taken as an absolute, and applied even in circumstances in which no impact will be felt.

quote:
If you are going to challenge the notion of preservation of property rights as a universal principle, I'm all ears.

Absolutely so. I don't dispute that an individual can lay to the exploitation of some necessary good or resource. My concern arises when someone has socially endowed property rights far beyond what they can actually personally exploit. Under those conditions, a property system that protects such property only serves to make others dependant on that person. A better system would not extend property rights to things an individual is not or is not capable of exploiting, and leave everything else free to be exploited by others. IMO our property system is a hindrance to innovation and welath creation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-13-2004 5:10 AM Sleeping Dragon has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 08-17-2004 12:36 PM contracycle has responded

  
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 284 (134684)
08-17-2004 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by contracycle
08-17-2004 6:16 AM


To contracycle:

Thank you for your reply.

Reply to your post:

Exactly so. That illustrates my point: the NOMINAL impact which someonbe MIGHT suffer is taken as an absolute, and applied even in circumstances in which no impact will be felt.

But who judges how much impact a loss will have on any individual? A selfish, egocentric scrooch may value his/her millionth dollar more than a generous individual value his/her hundredth dollar. Is percentage or proportion a sufficiently good basis for measuring impact?

Note: if the millionth dollar mattered so little to scrooch, why did he/she bother earning it in the first place? The fact that he/she now possess the wealth must mean that he/she values the dollar. How do we weigh subjective valuation of assets?

I don't dispute that an individual can lay to the exploitation of some necessary good or resource.

Oh good. Well we don't disagree on this at least.

My concern arises when someone has socially endowed property rights far beyond what they can actually personally exploit. Under those conditions, a property system that protects such property only serves to make others dependant on that person. A better system would not extend property rights to things an individual is not or is not capable of exploiting, and leave everything else free to be exploited by others. IMO our property system is a hindrance to innovation and welath creation.

Hmmmmmmmmmm..........I kind of understand what you are referring to, though it sounds more like an economic wealth allocation problem than morality. A progressive tax (such as income tax) is already doing such a great job of allocating wealth from the rich to the poor - must we really change Possession Law?

I don't know if I am interpreting this correctly, but you seem to be saying that in a better system, all individuals can only obtain and possess a certain amount of wealth (x), and that any wealth they generate past this amount must be forfeited to the society. Is this Communism?

Why would people work harder to earn past the minimum quota (since they can't retain the wealth anyway) - Promotion of laziness.

How do people who can't even earn the minimum amount of wealth survive?

How do you measure "ability to exploit"?

A better system would not extend property rights to things an individual is not or is not capable of exploiting, and leave everything else free to be exploited by others.

Can you explain this "better system" in greater detail please?

Patiently awaiting your reply.


"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by contracycle, posted 08-17-2004 6:16 AM contracycle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 262 by contracycle, posted 08-19-2004 7:02 AM Sleeping Dragon has responded

  
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