the principles of world view

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Funny, I've been living and working in the real world of nuclear engineering for 44 years, designing, building, and repairing power plants. I understand why and how they function.

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Curiously, all that this proves, if it's true, is that not all scientists know how science works, and why.

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For we know that our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus -- and non-believers. -- Barack ObamaWe see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

I think the thing is that the scientific method used to develop our understanding of atomic theory is exactly the same scientific method that was used to develop our understanding of evolutionary theory.What you seem to be saying that what is good for the goose is not good for the ganger.

You are confused Subbie. Engineers are by no means scientists. They are technicians with more education.

You probably should differentiate between scientists and engineers. This is not meant to denigrate engineers, but most often they are not scientists. In almost all cases they are not theory oriented but more hands-on in their approach.Most engineers know a lot of science, but often that is from learning what has been worked out by the scientists rather than advancing scientific theory themselves.Your mileage may vary.

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Evilutionists? Probably true.Until you are able live long enough to observe and prove the claims made by the theories of evolution, they are just that - theories, not facts, and certainly not true science.

Ravhin seemed to be impressed that he knew that U238 has a half life of about 4.5 billion years. I was pointing out that the important thing science has learned is that U235 and U239 are fissionable with slow neutrons, and U238 with fast neutrons. This was learned and proved through true science in labortories, not through some theory that cannot be proven unless one lives millions/billions of lifetimes.

Theories are "true" science--to the extent that such a thing as "true" science exists.A theory is the current best explanation for a given set of phenomena. To become a theory an idea or hypothesis must have undergone rigorous testing and must have made successful predictions. And, there must be no facts which contradict that theory.There is no higher level of explanation in science than a theory. A law is not higher, as theories explain laws. Proof is not a part of science; see the math guys down the hall.You seem be be laboring under the notion that the recent creationist talking point of purporting to differentiate between "true" science and evolutionary science is legitimate. It is not.Perhaps you folks should stop trying to interfere in science, eh?

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Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Bringing back the comment of the half-life of U238. If one person has to live long enough in order to observe the fact, then I guess the science behind decay isn't a true science, as you would put it.After all, the human life span is roughly 80 years (in developed countries, that is). Since we've only known about decay for roughly 100 hundred years, we have not as a species or individually lived long enough to see C14 decay, to Argon decay, to see U238 decay (through one complete half-life, that is).In fact, no one has lived long enough to see pluto completely revolve around the sun once. We've only known about pluto for almost 80 years. Pluto's orbit is 249 years long.We haven't lived long enough to see us completely revolve around the milky way galaxy. I don't recall how long it would take, but we're talking hundreds of thousands of years.No humans were alive the last time yellowstone blew its lid. And yet we know it did. I guess that's just a theory, right, since we didn't live to observe it.Do you know how absolutely ridiculous you look making these claims?Is it just perhaps possible that you can actually work backwards from what you know? That you don't have to have observed pluto's complete orbit to know it's going to be 248 years? That U238 has a half life of 4.47 billion years? That the evidence for a yellostone eruption is similar to that of volcanoes erupting today, albeit on a much larger scale? That the evidence of the change in alleles over time, the observed mutations, the observed speciations, means that evolution does indeed happen, and that the theory does explain what we see? Of course.It is readily apparent that you know not the slightest thing about how science works. So please, learn how science works, and learn some biology and evolutionary biology.

The ones that understand how true science works live in a real world of cause and effects. They look for causes why certain effects are happening, and prove "the why" in a labortory to a high degree of accuracy. They don't live in an unreal world where they base their beliefs on theories that can never be fully proven or shown to be true to a high degree of accuracy.

One big difference!!! Atomic scientists have actually proved to a high degree of accuracy in a labortory that their theory that atoms were fissioning was true. Understanding of how atoms fission is now fact and truth for most atomic scientistsThe evolutionary theory has been and always will remain just that - AN UNPROVABLE THEORY due to the fact that no one can live long enouogh to prove that it actually works.

Theories are just that, theories until they are proven to be true. Theories may be studied by scientific methods, but that does not make them "true science" in and of themselves. When they are proven to be true, then the theories and the science that proved them to be true may be considered true science.

When doctors are quizzed in medical school, they are not quizzed on how well they know evolutionsry biology theories. They are quizzed on how well they know how the human body ticks, and how to repair the human body when things go wrong.The same is true for scientists and engineers getting degrees in their chosen profession. They learn what makes the real world tick, and how to transform the things God has made into something useful.

Thanks, John 10:10 I have a working knowledge, just as I have a working knowledge of automechanics, but you may well be more intimately knowledgeable in specifics, just as I expect you have more knowledge of what the bible says than I do.Curiously this has no effect or import to your knowledge of evolution or your opinion on many topics not directly associated with nuclear physics or biblical quoting.This is the logical fallacy of the appeal to authority, as an authority on one topic can be totally ignorant of another.The question for you - as a nuclear technician or engineer - is whether or not you would agree, that any person that has an opinion contradicted by the evidence of nuclear physics can be correct in his opinion, and that this opinion could cause nuclear physics to change?Enjoy.btw - an old saying of mine is that "science is the art of understanding the universe, engineering is the art of making practical use of science" -- they are not the same thing, and they do not use the same methodology. Engineering is concerned with making approximations good enough for practical design, and then adding factors of safety to cover what you don't know. Science is concerned with finding out what you don't know. Engineering depends on science to advance knowledge to increase the practicality of designs. Just over 50 years ago, your profession did not exist at all. That it does now exist, is due to scientists, not engineers.Edited by RAZD, : added tidbit

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Way to dodge. If you want to criticize a field, you have to actually know what the field says. Otherwise you build strawmen and display a high level of ignorance. No one need take your arguments seriously when you make the basic mistake of claiming that single cell organisms do not reproduce.You do not even seem to understand what a theory is. A theory, as has been pointed out, is an explanatory framework. The Theory of Gravity explaining the phenomenon of gravity, for example. The Theory of Gravity has not been proved, as one does not prove things in science.Thus, the Theory of Evolution explains the phenomenon of evolution. Allele frequency changes over time. This has been observed. That is the most basic definition of evolution. The Theory explains how the allele frequency changes over time. What's more, the Theory does actually explain very well what we observe.So yeah, as long as you continue to get basic biological facts wrong, and misunderstand how science works, your criticisms are really quite blanks fired into the air.

Hi John 10:10, still having trouble distinguishing science from the practical application of knowledge gained from science? Correct, just as engineering students, they are tested on their knowledge of known results from known, repeated tests of theoretical results, and how to apply those known results of theoretical testing for practical benefit.But that knowledge is produced by scientists, not by engineering students or pre-med doctors. And it is produce by application of theory and replicated testing of results. All modern medicines are based on our knowledge of biology, and our knowledge of biology is improved and informed by our knowledge of evolution. Science expands our knowledge of the universe, and this results in new applications for medicine and for engineering. Modern evolution has produced practical applications to medicine, just as modern physics has produced practical applications to nuclear engineering.Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •