Hangdawg13 responds to me:
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The implication is quite clear: Physical death before the sun sets.
That's simply false.
What do you think "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" means? You do know that Judaism measures its days by the sunset, right? That's why Genesis 1 talks about "the evening and the morning." Days are marked by the sun going down. The phrasing used in Genesis 2:17 is quite clear to anybody who speaks Hebrew: Physical death before sunset.
u.me.ets ha.da.at tov va.ra lo to.khal mi.me.nu ki be.yom a.khal.kha mi.me.nu mot ta.mut:
What more do you need?
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It is by this misconception that the serpent decieved eve.
But the serpent isn't the one who mentioned anything about dying. That was Eve:
Genesis 3:2: And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3:3: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
The serpent didn't mention anything about dying until Eve brings it up. They even use the same words that god used:
Genesis 3:3: u.mip.ri ha.ets a.sher be.tokh-ha.gan a.mar e.lo.him lo tokh.lu mi.me.nu ve.lo tig.u bo pen te.mu.tun:
Genesis 3:4: va.yo.mer ha.na.khash el-ha.i.sha lo-mot te.mu.tun:
What do you think that means?
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He told her a half truth. She would not immediately die physically, but would immediately die spiritually.
But that isn't what god said. God said they would die a physical death.
u.me.ets ha.da.at tov va.ra lo to.khal mi.me.nu ki be.yom a.khal.kha mi.me.nu mot ta.mut:
What do you think that means?
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Therefore, why would Adam follow a commandment when he doesn't know what a commandment is?
God told him not to do something.
So what? Why would Adam follow it since he doesn't know what obedience is? He doesn't know what good and evil are so he has no concept of obedience. By what justification would Adam reason, "I shouldn't do that"?
Especially when told that the person who told you not to do that was lying to you?
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He chose to do it.
Just like he chose not to wear clothes.
If he got a pass for that sin, why is god so upset over them eating from the tree of knowledge?
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I don't see what's so hard to understand.
Indeed, it is quite simple to understand:
Adam and Eve were set up. They were innocent and punished for something they had no control over.
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One does not need knowledge of good and evil in order to obey God.
Incorrect. That is precisely what one needs. Obedience requires comprehension of good and evil. You cannot obey someone without comprehension of the consequences of your actions should you disobey.
A choice can only mean something when one understands the consequences of that choice.
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And Adam and Eve recieved two conflicting versions of the consequences.
And by what justification would they reason that they should follow god's words? They don't know what good and evil are, so saying that they should follow god because god is good isn't an answer.
Beetaratagang or clerendipity? Which one do you choose? I believe this is the third time I've asked you this question and I do not ask it for my health. I really would like a direct response to my direct question:
Beetaratagang or clerendipity?
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Eve decided to believe the serpent and choose against God's will.
Innocently. She wasn't sinning. How could she when she was incapable of understanding good and evil? Sin requires a conscious decision to do evil. Eve, who doesn't know what evil is, is incapable of sinning.
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Adam did not believe the serpent
Says who? Please show me the chapter and verse where Adam proclaims his disavowal of the serpent's claim. Adam never mentions the serpent.
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Beetaratagang or clerendipity? One will grant you everlasting bliss while the other will send you to eternal agony. Which one is it? Come on, now, choose! You're an adult. You're not stupid. Which one is it? Make your choice!
I will not make a choice until God tells me which one to choose.
But god has.
So which is it? You know the difference between them. God has told you which one he wishes. So which one is it?
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If God tells me to choose Beetaratagang, then I will choose it. If you subsequently tell me to choose clerendipity, thereby contradicting God's instructions, I will not listen to you because I choose to do what God tells me.
But why are you following god's words? Is following god beetaratagang or is it clerendipity? Surely you know which one it is.
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Where on earth did god explain the consequences?
For in the day that thou eatest thereof, dying, you will die.
But they didn't die.
Therefore, god lied. He didn't explain the consequences. He said that they would die and they didn't.
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He lied to them! He told them in no uncertain terms that if they were to eat of the tree of life, they would be physically dead before the sun set.
Umm... you mean the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Yes, I did. My mistake.
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But where does it say "physically dead"?
In the words used.
u.me.ets ha.da.at tov va.ra lo to.khal mi.me.nu ki be.yom a.khal.kha mi.me.nu mot ta.mut:
What do you think "mot" means? The root is "muwth" which not only means "die" but also has overtones of dying prematurely. It is used to refer to the dealth penalty, the death of nations, and dying before one's time. It is used over 800 times in the Bible and most specifically gets used when the Bible mentions Adam's actual death:
Genesis 5:5: And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years; and he died.
va.yih.yu kol-ye.mei a.dam a.sher-khai te.sha me.ot sha.na u.she.lo.shim sha.na va.ya.mot:
The same words. If it didn't mean a physical death then, why does it mean a physical death now?
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How do we even know what physical death is at this point?
You're beginning to see.
How on earth can you explain consequences to someone who doesn't understand what consequences are? Please tell us how you would describe "red" to a blind person.
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There is nothing to indicate anything has ever died.
They had to eat. Therefore, they were well acquainted with death.
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God simply said, "muth muth":
No, he didn't. Methinks you've been reading a poor concordance showing roots rather than the actual Hebrew:
Genesis 2:17: u.me.ets ha.da.at tov va.ra lo to.khal mi.me.nu ki be.yom a.khal.kha mi.me.nu mot ta.mut:
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dying die implying two deaths; one immediate, one future.
No, implying death right here, right now, before your time.
That's what "muwth" means: Premature death, killing, slaying.
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By tacking on the "physical" to the death you are accomplishing the same deception as the serpent.
No, I am not tacking on anything. That's what the word means.
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And when Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge, they didn't die.
If they didn't die spiritually, then why were they forbidden to live in the garden in God's presence?
Ask god. The Bible doesn't say. The most obvious reason is that they had broken the only commandment they had ever been given and as is quite clear from the text, the god of the Old Testament is a snotty brat who regularly sets people up to fail and then punishes them for doing precisely that.
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Why could they no longer partake of the fruit of the tree of life?
Because they were driven out before they had the chance. The Bible directly states this:
Genesis 3:22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
3:24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
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Why did they have to begin making sacrifices to cover their sins?
Because they were now capable of sin, seeing as how their eyes were opened to good and evil.
You can't sin if you don't know what you're doing. Sin requires knowledge of good and evil. Sin is the deliberate intention to engage in evil. If you don't know what evil is, you cannot sin.
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Do you even know what spiritual life is?
Do you?
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Therefore, Genesis points out that running around without clothes is a sin
It does not point this out.
Genesis 2:25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
The very first thing that Adam and Eve panic over after they eat from the tree of knowledge and become as gods is not the fact that they just disobeyed the only commandment they had ever been given. It's the fact that they're naked:
Genesis 3:7: And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
And when god comes looking for them (and why does god need to look for them?) and asks them why they are hiding, it isn't because they are ashamed for having disobeyed but rather because they are naked:
Genesis 3:10: And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Therefore, Genesis points out that running around without clothes is a sin. What more do you need? It says it directly three times.
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It points out that their first act after sinning was one of self-righteousness.
Incorrect. It points out that their first act after not sinning was one of shame.
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Tell me where God commands them to wear clothes.
I already did:
Genesis 3:21: Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Why would god make clothes for them if he didn't care if they were naked?
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God doesn't care whether they are naked or not.
Then why would he make clothes for them? Why would they be ashamed of being naked? Why would the Bible specifically point out that they were naked and not ashamed when they were still innocent?
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They only care after they have sinned because they realize their depravity and want to hide it from God and from each other.
How is being naked a depravity? You said so yourself (
Message 34):
Since when is being naked a sin anyway?
So which is it? Is being naked depravity or not?
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If you were a teenager and your parents walked in on you while you were having sex, what would be your first instinct? To cover up.
Not if I didn't think it was depraved. Remember, nobody told them that they were naked. They figured it out on their own because they had just eaten from the tree of knowledge and acquired the ability to know good and evil.
And why on earth are you talking about sex? It isn't like Adam and Eve were humping twenty-four hours a day.
If nothing they had done before eating from the tree of knowledge was a sin, why would doing the exact same thing they had always done suddenly become something shameful and in need of hiding after they had eaten?
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There is a passage, I forget where, that indicates they had a clothing of many precious stones as a metaphor for light.
Nowhere in Genesis. Please try to stick to the text actually under discussion.
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If god doesn't care about nakedness, why does he bother to make clothes for them?
Three purposes: For their comfort;
That isn't what the Bible says. And they managed this long without clothes. Why would they need them now?
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apparently they suddenly became modest:
Because being naked is a sin.
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For their protection from the elements as they were no longer in the perfect envrionment of Eden.
Who said Eden was a perfect environment?
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And possibly as a way of beginning the custom of wearing clothes as a means of keeping sexual lust under wraps.
Because being naked is a sin.
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No where in the Bible does God command us to wear clothes.
He doesn't have to. We are as gods now, knowing good and evil. The very first thing that Adam and Eve do upon eating from the tree of knowledge is panic over being naked. In his wrath regarding Adam and Eve, he kicks them out with only a change of clothes.
The Bible even directly says that being naked is a sin:
Genesis 2:25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Who are you to contradict the Bible?
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If they were perfect, they would be incapable of sin.
This is the stupidest fallacy I've ever heard, and I have heard it before.
Being perfect is a quality that only exists in reference to God.
Fine. The question still stands: If they were perfect, they would be incapable of sin.
And, of course, they were incapable of sin: They were innocent. That's what "innocent" means: Incapable of consciously doing evil. And that what sin means: Consciously doing evil.
One cannot sin if one is innocent.
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If being perfect inhibited their ability to stop being perfect, then they wouldn't have a choice.
And they didn't. They didn't choose to do evil. They chose to eat from a tree. Being completely and utterly ignorant of what good and evil were, they would be incapable of deliberately choosing evil.
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Where does someone get the idea that being perfect removes your ability to choose to quit being perfect.
From the definition of "perfect." A perfect person would not deliberately choose to destroy that perfection. A perfect person would not engage in activity that he knew would cause the loss of that perfection.
Note, this doesn't mean that he is incapable of losing his perfection through his own actions. It means that any loss of that perfection is not the result of his conscious choice to become imperfect.
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Adam and Eve were not immutable like God. They could change and they did change.
But they did so innocently and thus punishment was an evil act.
You don't punish the baby for knocking over the vase. He doesn't know any better. You're the adult. You're the one that is supposed to make sure that the vase isn't there to be knocked over.
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Given the fact that at least Adam had seen god directly and god certainly wouldn't sin by being naked,
You have not established that nakedness is a sin.
Yes, I have.
Genesis 2:25: And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Who are you to contradict the Bible?
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Why do Adam and Eve panic over the fact that they are naked? Why are they ashamed of being naked? They have always been naked before. What's changed?
I think I've already explained this well enough.
No, you haven't. You've interpolated a haughtiness upon them that wasn't there before and isn't displayed anywhere in the text. Adam and Eve cover up not because of self-righteousness but because of its opposite: Shame. They say so directly.
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Their eyes were opened to understanding good and evil.
Precisely! So since their eyes were opened
AFTER eating from the tree, how could they possibly be held responsible for eating from the tree? They didn't know any better! They were innocent. Their eyes were closed to such things as good and evil. Certainly they made choices, but they had no idea what those choices meant. Good and evil were to them as beetaratagang and clerendipity are to you. For one who understands them, it is quite clear which is which. For one who doesn't understand, they are meaningless.
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They knew that because they had disobeyed God, they were now spiritually dead and sinful.
So why don't they panic over having eaten from the tree? Since they know what good and evil are, why cover up if being naked isn't a sin?
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Their first reaction was to cover themselves to prevent their wickedness from being seen.
Because being naked is a sin.
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Honestly, I don't know why you try so hard to distort this.
There's nothing to distort.
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A five-year-old can be read this story and comprehend it.
I know. I've met five-year-olds that asked these very questions.
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Why are you trying to muddy the waters? What's your beef with God?
I have no beef with god. What makes you think the story of Genesis has any connection with god?
Just because I don't believe in
your god doesn't mean I don't believe in
any god.
Have you considered the possibility that god does exist but not in the way you think?
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!
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