God is cruel

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Or at least because of the "sin" of a couple of mythical people who didn't even know what good and evil meant.........

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They were told not to touch something and why. They did it anyways.
The child is told not to touch the hot pot. It doesn't really know that it is hot until it touches it. It can either believe what it is told, or it can live with the consequences.They lived with the consequences of not believing what they were told.

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anyways.

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In a world where death supposedly did not exist, Adam was told not to eat that fruit or he would die that same day. Yeah. Let's tell that two-year-old toddler "refrain from touching the cooking vessel, as it might cause thermal damage to your epidermis and perhaps dermis."

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It's a silly-assed story any way you slice it. Coyote had much better stories about him.

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Adam was given the ability to choose. Which he did. Choosing is possible when you have options. He had them. The toddler has the option to listen to mom or dad, mom or dad have the responsibility to teach the lesson so it is understood. The lesson is yes means yes and no means no. Children need reinforcement and should have it consistently.I hope that is not a silly-assed story.One more thing. In the day Adam would eat of the fruit, he would surely die. If you think about that for a minit, you will see that what he did led to his death, which was told him that day.
Since we know he did not die that selfsame day, he had some time to think about what he did.This message has been edited by DorfMan, 04-04-2006 10:38 AM

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Yeah! Why don't we each get a chance to eat or not eat the apple?

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Just as a practical matter, how long do you think you could hold out not eating something that was specifically identified to you as the one thing you are not allowed to eat, and this other being comes along (you can't have one part of the story without the other you know) and tells you that God lied to you and it's really good to eat and will make you as smart as God?

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Aside from that, participating of the fruit had the same effect as any other harmful substance. Adam passed that participation on to all mankind the same way a mother on crack affects her offspring.
The sins of the fathers are passed down to many generations. In Adam's case, to all of them. Now it becomes our option not to participate, except of course the genetic defects we inherit and are helpless to change.

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Dorfman writes:

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The child is told not to touch the hot pot. It doesn't really know that it is hot until it touches it. It can either believe what it is told, or it can live with the consequences.

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that's fine but why does the child's children and all their descendants have to live with the consequences ?

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Now here's a question : If that was your child touching the hot pot and you ensured that your child and all its descendants would have to live with the consequences for the rest of their lives, which of the following adjectives would be applicable to you and why ? :

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- 'just'
- 'loving'
- 'cruel'

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Why does the crack baby have to live with its mother's choice?The child and its descendants DO live with the consequences of the choices the child has made, big and small choices. It adds up. You know?
Stephen Crane wrote some kind of poem on the issue of the sins of the fathers. Judging by its content, it is clear he does not see how the right choices made by him, me, and you, will affect our offspring as much as the wrong choices.

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If it says they were told they would die, then the logical thing to assume, the fair thing to assume, is that they understood it...

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In a world where death doesn't even exist they're going to understand death? Sure..........

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They understood "DON'T". We don't know the content of the conversations God had with those two. We just know he had them. It is highly doubtful that these two models did not come with instructions. That would be remiss.

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Adam was dying anyway regardless of whether he ate the fruit or not. Adam and Eve were mortal, so they,just like all of us, began to die the second they were created.

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Hi!
For as long as Adam lived in the garden, he was immortal. Death did not come until sin entered his world. He consumed of the tree of life, which was his sustainer. Once he had made the wrong choice, access to this tree was taken from him.........lest he lived a sinfilled forever.How cruel it would have been to let Adam live forever in misery and regret!Genesis 3:21-24
21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." 23 So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. 24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [e] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

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Why does the crack baby have to live with its mother's choice?

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Huh? You want it should commit suicide instead?

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Hm! That is an uncommon response.
Thank you.

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eagerly awaiting your answer,

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Thank you, but I believe I did answer your question. To my satisfaction.

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And that seems just to you? that seems fair to you?

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Is this the 'merciful' God you worship?

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A god that would make a child's life horrific because of the actions of it's mother? how can you possibly justify such a thing?

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you can have him.

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What is mercy? And what is justification?
Neither mercy nor justification are subject to emotion. Both are effectively worked out with logic and reason, and certainly with intelligence.If you plant a tulip, you will get a tulip. If a woman is on crack, the child she delivers is on crack. Don't look for lilacs from a tulip bulb, and don't look for health when the decision was made for death. It is illogical.

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Do you think all of humanity should be punished if one man commits murder? or adultery?

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would this be Just?

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Based on observation, in which you most certainly participate, ALL humanity IS punished when one man commits murder or adultery.
Now, all you have to do is connect the dots.

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in what way is allowing ALL humanity to be punished when ONE man commits murder or adultery, just or fair??

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The guilty by association syndrome is devastating to those who have not personally lifted a hand in anger. Humanity is our lot, and we share it with those who act on what is in all of us........the ability. To consider.......Thinking to kill someone, thinking to cheat on a spouse, is the same as doing it. What kind of punishment befalls the 'thinker'?
What kind of law have you broken? If you break one, you are guilty of breaking all, according to scripture and civil laws as well.James 2:10-12 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

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I don't see how this is true.. but I'm going to run with it.
is this Just?
is this fair?
should I suffer because someone far away, with no connection to me decides to spend the night with a hooker?

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Facts are neither fair not just, they are facts.
As for the hooker? He may have VD, he may spread it over a far away distance, he will get medical treatment, he may not have insurance, he may have children he cannot nurture, feed, he may steal to feed a habit, he may.........he may.........he may.
Do you see the connection to you and how true it is?
Fact is, we're in this whether we like it or not. Stop the world I want to get off..........I've tried it, it doesn't work.

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Facts are neither fair not just, they are facts

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but god has condemned us to this existance right?
so therefore god has condemned us to an existance that is neither fair nor Just (according to what you say above),

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The conditions that resulted in the facts as we live them, were brought on by decisions made by us and for us. What has God to do with them?
Adam and Eve decided for themselves and their off-off-offspring, and so do we. I see no condemnation by God. It would be God's fault if he had made them robots rather than self-determining humans.Do you know why you give Him the blame?

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what about a new-born baby that has broken no law, yet dies of a horrible disease as a result of the sins of its parents ?

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is that just?

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or is it cruel?

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All humanity on this planet had no choice in being born. Birth happens. Upon this event begins a domino effect we cannot outrun. The child is innocent of the sins of its parents, but must bear those sins. Then we should probably not have children. To do so may be unjust and cruel.How you can determine that this is God's injustice and cruelty is beyond my understanding. From the beginning, we are endowed with the privilege to behave as we decide. Consequences are always ours.You see God as unjust and cruel, when it is really we who are.

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what you're forgetting here is that we didn't make up the rules, we're just playing along.

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I forget nothing. It is convenient for the non-believer to post such questions only to deride the given answers so he can keep his ball rolling and hope for an outcome suitable to his ball.
Ordinarily, I would have terminated this conversation some time ago. Sometime has arrived.
You want me to say something I cannot say without becoming a liar. The answer is NO!

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Let me put it another way: if I intentionally dig up a hole in front of your front door and you fall in it and break your leg, who's being cruel ?

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I recently broke my ankle stepping on one of my grandson's toys. Was he cruel for leaving it where I could step on it, or was I remiss in not looking where I was going?
I was remiss and would be if I were to fall into your hole.Believe what you like and be happy with it. I'll do the same.