God is cruel

Such as? Ok, maybe I am not understanding you, but I am not asking for anything to be eliminated.I just said we should be open to all possibilities. Yes!! Evidence of something.

quote:

---

eagerly awaiting your answer,

---

Thank you, but I believe I did answer your question. To my satisfaction.

quote:

---

And that seems just to you? that seems fair to you?

​

Is this the 'merciful' God you worship?

​

A god that would make a child's life horrific because of the actions of it's mother? how can you possibly justify such a thing?

​

you can have him.

---

What is mercy? And what is justification?
Neither mercy nor justification are subject to emotion. Both are effectively worked out with logic and reason, and certainly with intelligence.If you plant a tulip, you will get a tulip. If a woman is on crack, the child she delivers is on crack. Don't look for lilacs from a tulip bulb, and don't look for health when the decision was made for death. It is illogical.

Then he should come out and say it. Yeah, it's pretty fun. Okay then, he should, with some difficulty, be able to believe in the butt monkeys, with all his heart.For that matter, so should you. Give it a whirl! Because in this scenario, they didn't choose the religion. They found that they considered it truthful by virtue of what the religion was.Believing it what you think is true isn't a choice.

---

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

I can completely accept that you may get an overwhelming feeling of welbeing, of goodness, of love. That you will search for an explanation of everything around you, and God, in one respect is an easy solution, it provides answers, a set of instructions, which if followed will make everything betterUnfortunately you lose at the very point that you attribute that feeling to God... From my point of view this is your way of applying meaning to something you cannot understand, 'God' is a very easy way to do this, I can't accept this, because the notion of God is unsupportable and contradictory.I guess (and i mean no offense by this, just explaining how I see it), I view this as pure self delusion, with the very real (and beneficial) effect of providing inner peace, peace in the knowledge/belief that you know what is causing these feelings. peace in the knowledge/belief that all that is unknown will be taken care of by god.But, i would side with Dan here when i say you do not choose to believe in something. Or rather, your belief in something in no way makes it real.
If it really were that easy I would choose to believe in Santaclaus, the easter bunny, happy endings. They would be no more likely to exist due to my belief. but they would be no more likely to cease to exist due to my disbelief.To believe in something, it has to present itself(or be presented) as something believable, possible, and likely. Otherwise I fear i do not have the capability to believe in it.This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:25 PMedited to fix quoteThis message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:26 PM

But that is what he did, you just decided to apply and out-of-context meaning to a word to make being a smart-ass easier. Does not being able to choose to believe in butt monkeys mean that there isn't anything that I can choose to believe in?Does being able to choose to believe in something mean that you can choose to believe in anything?I would say no to both of these, you seem to think otherwise. care to explain? You thinking its true is the reason you choose to believe it. If it isn't a choice then what is it?you missed this part:

quote:

---

Why is it so hard for you to accept belief as a choice?

---

that seems to add up to a strong possibility for a cruel God. no emmotion, just logic and reason.You feel it is logical and just to punish mankind in its entirety for the actions of two people?
You think it's fair that an innocent child should suffer because it's mother was a crack-head? is that just?
don't answer with a queastion... simply answer mine. I know what to expect..because I'm aware that there is no god to intervene in these things.
I'm asking you.. from the point of view of the child... is it fair? is justice being served?Do you think all of humanity should be punished if one man commits murder? or adultery?would this be Just?This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-05-2006 04:36 PM

There are some people who realise that it could be a dilusion and then rationally conclude that it is not, and that it is in fact real. Now, it could just be a really good dilusion, but anything could be that, even the computer in front of you. So, I've come to trust myself in deciding what I determine is a delusion and what is not. I just wanted to let you know that there are people who realize the possibility of being deluded and conclude that it is not a delusion. Thats understandable. Faith is a weird thing but it does exist and can be beneficial.What about when you're faced with a challenge that seems unlikely for you to complete...do you just give up or do you have faith in yourself and try?Faith can be a very stong influece on the outcome. I think faith can be very powerful and I think that you are missing out on something if you lack it.

If that challenge is reasonable, yes, I know me, I know what I'm capable of, years of practice has helped me learn my limitations.however, if that challenge was to, say, jump off a cliff and float gently to the ground, I have vary little faith in that happening.Similarly, i find it impossible to have faith in a God which (if he exists) to me seems cruel, jealous, heartless and vindictive.Do I want to spend eternity with abeing who allows such hateful things to happens, which allows such pain anguish and suffering on such a massive scale?
no, I do not.

Yep. If you can't choose what doesn't come automatically, then there is no choice. You just believe what you believe.Imagine for a second that I put two cupcakes on a table. I proceed to pour concrete all over one of them, and let it dry. I then tell you, "choose one."You're not choosing the concrete-free cupcake; it's the only option. The belief to which you are led. Or, arguably, forced.Can you envision any situation in which you would say, "Hm... religion A and religion B are mutually exclusive. If one is true, the other is false. I think religion A is true, but I'll go ahead and believe in religion B!"If not, then it's the same as the cupcakes. If there's no option, there's no choice.This message has been edited by [Dan's Clever Alias], 04-05-2006 04:51 PM

---

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

It's off topic so please respond here

quote:

---

Do you think all of humanity should be punished if one man commits murder? or adultery?

​

would this be Just?

---

Based on observation, in which you most certainly participate, ALL humanity IS punished when one man commits murder or adultery.
Now, all you have to do is connect the dots.

No, it's been just the opposite. It has been a tough ride, but a rewarding one. I knew instantly the moment I felt what I felt that my life was going to be tougher if I chose to pursue it, and not explain it away. It was more than just a feeling. It was thoughts in my head, overwhelming feeling, instant change for many things in my life, physical change on the outside, that people noticed, a whole new state of mind, that involved me doing things I was never capable of before.
Please keep in mind, that I was not at rock bottom or anything, my life was, and is a very happy one, and fulfilling. I took that into consideration, and it is more than just a feeling, so self delusion does not explain it. In fact I think I was in self delusion before it. I can see that now. More than knowledge belief. I physically things accomplished by God, based on my faith. I never understood the verse you can move mountains with your faith, until I started seeing it for myself. Unfortunatly I do not have enough faith to move a mountain, but some of the smaller things in life, can now be accomplished. Yea, I used to think that the subjective evidence I see, with some objective evidence, does not prove God. It's all about love. No offense, but all this stuff your telling me, has been told by many in this forum already. It's becoming like a preprogrammed response that you learn in college or something. I also would talk exactly the way your talking now, until it happens to you. I don't expect you to believe, but it wouldn't hurt to keep your eyes open.If there is one thing I learned, it is we all seek the truth. God is truth, and he created us to worship Him in spirit and truth.

Again no offense, but isn't this a delusion itself?
people seem to think that because gravity exists, we are subject to it, and we somehow try to explain it, that God doesn't exist.First off, we really do not know how gravity works. We can only theorize about it, and it is through our subjective minds that we do this. We see it in action, and know it is there, but explain exactly how it works.Or try to create matter.Anyway with the faith you just described, you will never get to overcome gravity. You will always be tied to this world.Typically the next response will be someone telling me to jump off a bridge or something, lol.

Yes, but not to mine.this is a debate forum, after all.

---

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."