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Author Topic:   God is cruel
Heathen
Member
Posts: 1064
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 256 of 301 (304256)
04-14-2006 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 3:07 PM


You, yourself said:
Me personally, I don't think it is necessarilly 'fair'. I'm almost positive it isn't 'just' either

My response was:

Thus, if you believe God response to A&E's disobedience was the fall......then you must accept that God is Neither Fair nor Just.

a) Do you believe that the fall and the ensuing state of humanity was/is fair or Just?
(you answered No above)

b)Do you believe that the Fall was God's response to A&E's disobedience?
yes/no?

if you answer Yes to (b), then it follows that God's actions (in making all of humanity suffer for A&E's actions) was not fair nor Just.
It seems like the only conclusion to me (speaking, of course, using my fallen, skewed mind)
what is your alternative?

This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-14-2006 03:17 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Mr. Ex Nihilo, posted 04-14-2006 3:07 PM Mr. Ex Nihilo has not yet responded

PurpleYouko
Member
Posts: 713
From: Columbia Missouri
Joined: 11-11-2004


Message 257 of 301 (304275)
04-14-2006 4:35 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Heathen
04-14-2006 2:43 PM


I haven't seen it either
faith writes:


It's been explained pretty well already

I disagree. maybe I'm missing it... can you show me where that particular question:


how a christian can reconcile that with the notion of a benevolent/merciful (non-cruel) God.

has been answered?

I have carefully read through this entire thread and I don't see a direct answer to this question either.

I see plenty of people using the reverse of the argument to say that their basic premise is that they do not accept that God is cruel or unjust and therby concluding that the evidence that we think we see must be flawed in some way to make us think that he is.
This is just faith speaking IMO
Nobody ever said faith had to follow logic.


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jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 258 of 301 (304278)
04-14-2006 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by Mr. Ex Nihilo
04-14-2006 2:44 PM


How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
jar writes:

They may well have seen death, but why would you think they knew that was bad?

to which Mr. Ex Nilo replies"

quote:
Because God apparently gave this in the sense of a warning not to do it or else something dire would happen.

So what? The serpent said "Never mind, it's okay to eat the fruit."

How is that different from what GOD said? Why do you think A&E would know to obey one but not the other?

In order for what you're suggesting to be true, one would have to almost rephrase this passage entirely. In other words, why bother warning them at all is this was ultimately good?

Not at all. The reason that you wouldn't reword the passage is that would not work as the plot device for the storyteller making up the story. The story teller is trying to explain why things die. It's a nice series of Just So stories that explain why things die, why you should take a day off, why you have to till the fields instead of just grazing off the land, why you should fear snakes and why women are less than men.

edited to change subtitle

This message has been edited by jar, 04-14-2006 04:04 PM


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Faith
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Posts: 33862
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 259 of 301 (304284)
04-14-2006 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by jar
04-14-2006 4:51 PM


Re: How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
They should know the voice of God because they were made in his image. Eve knew the difference but obeyed her ego instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 4:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 260 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:23 PM Faith has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 260 of 301 (304286)
04-14-2006 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:18 PM


Re: How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
Faith writes:

They should know the voice of God because they were made in his image.

Sorry, but what does that have to do with knowing right from wrong or whether to obey what he said? Before the GIFT from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, what tools did they have for knowing who to believe?

Eve knew the difference but obeyed her ego instead.

You may well believe that but if she had an ego, was it the result of being made in GOD's image? Otherwise, before gaining the gift or knowledge how would she know? Is there some passage in the Genesis fable that says she followed her ego?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:18 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
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Faith
Member
Posts: 33862
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 261 of 301 (304287)
04-14-2006 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by PurpleYouko
04-14-2006 4:35 PM


Re: I haven't seen it either
I suppose in a way you are right, it is faith speaking, but I do think specific answers have been given plenty of times. Maybe it wasn't said on this thread, though I thought so. God's giving His creatures free will, or the ability to choose against Him, is the normal answer to complaints that the Fall shows an evil God. There would be no issue of obedience or of loving God if we had no free will. Love is shown by voluntary obedience and love is of more worth than compulsion.

But also, if it is faith that affirms this, it means faith that God is good and does nothing that is not good, and this is also logical. There is no contradiction between faith and logic. We know whatever happens happens because God is good and God is love. The link I posted about C.S. Lewis goes into more detail about how this is so.

This message has been edited by Faith, 04-14-2006 05:25 PM


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Faith
Member
Posts: 33862
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 262 of 301 (304289)
04-14-2006 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by jar
04-14-2006 5:23 PM


Re: How could A&E know to obey one voice over another?
God is good, God is love. United with God they needed no special tools. They would know His voice, just as Jesus' sheep know His voice.

Of course she followed her ego. She was persuaded that she would have the same knowledge God has. That's ego.


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 Message 260 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:32 PM Faith has responded

Heathen
Member
Posts: 1064
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 263 of 301 (304294)
04-14-2006 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:24 PM


Re: I haven't seen it either
I'm not convinced that 'Free will' explains it at all.

I was born into a fallen state... nothing to do with my free will.
for me to have the choice as A&E did, I would need to be in a pre-fall position and faced with the same choice they had. Other wise I am, by default, fallen.

creavolution writes:

Free will is not free will if we do not have the capability to make an informed intelligent choice. You have said that we cannot trust our own judgement or decisions. So..

According to the fall we do not have the wherewithall to make an informed decision. yet this is apparently the great 'gift' god has given us.

How are you sure that you decision to believe is not skewed by your fallen mind?


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 Message 261 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:24 PM Faith has not yet responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 264 of 301 (304295)
04-14-2006 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 262 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:27 PM


Just more assertions.
God is good, God is love. United with God they needed no special tools. They would know His voice, just as Jesus' sheep know His voice.

very cute, but what does that have to do with the issue being discussed? Before Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, how would they know to obey GOD and not the serpent?

Of course she followed her ego. She was persuaded that she would have the same knowledge God has. That's ego.

No, she followed the directions of the serpent. Why would she think it wrong to do so?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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 Message 262 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:27 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM jar has responded
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM jar has responded

Percy
Member
Posts: 19071
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 265 of 301 (304299)
04-14-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
04-14-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Just more assertions.
Not sure I understand this thread well enough to know if this part of the conversation is on-topic, but I'll give it a try anyway.

jar writes:

Faith writes:

Of course she followed her ego. She was persuaded that she would have the same knowledge God has. That's ego.

No, she followed the directions of the serpent. Why would she think it wrong to do so?

I feel like I'm missing something, because your question, "Why would she think it wrong to do so?" has so obvious an answer, but plowing ahead regardless...

She would think it wrong to do so because God said, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

The serpent told Eve otherwise, saying, "You will not surely die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

Eve had a choice to make. Who to believe, God or the serpent. She chose the serpent. Probably a bad choice.

--Percy


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 Message 264 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:54 PM Percy has responded

Faith
Member
Posts: 33862
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 266 of 301 (304300)
04-14-2006 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
04-14-2006 5:32 PM


Re: Just more assertions.
The answer to both your queries, which has already been given, is that they knew God's voice. The serpent's voice would not be God's and they would know this. Therefore she would not follow the serpent's voice. The reason she did is given in scripture -- he persuaded her she would be like God. That is ego.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 5:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 5:53 PM Faith has responded
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Percy
Member
Posts: 19071
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 267 of 301 (304301)
04-14-2006 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:49 PM


Re: Just more assertions.
Faith writes:

The reason she did is given in scripture -- he persuaded her she would be like God. That is ego.

Is ego really the only possibility? Aren't greed, lust for power, curiousity, thirst for knowledge, desire for wisdom, admiration for God that made her want to be like God, etc, also possibilities?

--Percy


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jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 268 of 301 (304302)
04-14-2006 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 265 by Percy
04-14-2006 5:49 PM


How to know right from wrong?
But Percy, before eating from the Tree of Knowledge Eve and Adam had no tools for choosing one option over the other, no method of knowing which was the right choice.

Now once they did eat from the Tree of Knowledge they did realize they had made the wrong decision. Until that moment though they simply didn't have the tools needed to know what was right or wrong.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Percy, posted 04-14-2006 8:39 PM jar has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31764
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 269 of 301 (304303)
04-14-2006 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 266 by Faith
04-14-2006 5:49 PM


knowing GOD's voice?
The answer to both your queries, which has already been given, is that they knew God's voice. The serpent's voice would not be God's and they would know this.

What does that have to do with anything? Before they ate from the Tree of Knowledge how would they know to obey GOD's voice?

The serpent's voice would not be God's and they would know this. Therefore she would not follow the serpent's voice. The reason she did is given in scripture -- he persuaded her she would be like God. That is ego.

Sorry but there's no connection there to ego that I can see. Again, what tools did Adam & Eve have to know not to listen to the serpent?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 5:49 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by Faith, posted 04-14-2006 7:56 PM jar has responded

AdminPD
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Message 270 of 301 (304310)
04-14-2006 7:25 PM


EOT in 30 Posts
Only 30 posts left until End of Thread.

It is a good time to start winding down and presenting summaries or conclusions.

Thanks for debating, carry on. Magic Wand


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