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Author Topic:   God is cruel
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 301 (300685)
04-03-2006 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by robinrohan
04-03-2006 3:13 PM


quote:
So, I have to assume that A. God is cruel. or B. God isn't real.
What he's really saying is that if God existed he would be cruel (so He doesn't exist). But if our morality is subjective, then we can't make objective moral judgments.
That's what I tried to point out in the third post in this thread. There are several hidden premises in protomenace's argument.

"Religion is the best business to be in. It's the only one where the customers blame themselves for product failure."
-- Ellis Weiner (quoted on the NAiG message board)

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 62 of 301 (300686)
04-03-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Heathen
04-03-2006 5:02 PM


Seems there's a lot more chances for us to screw up than there was in Adam and Eve's years. they were forbiddden from eating an from a tree.
well I don't read genesis literally. I don't think Adam and Eve actually existed.
Seems nowadays we're all doomed from the word go...
Why does it seem that?
even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil?
I have no idea.
justice indeed
indeed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Heathen, posted 04-03-2006 5:02 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Heathen, posted 04-03-2006 5:34 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 63 of 301 (300698)
04-03-2006 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2006 5:15 PM


Catholic Scientist writes:
Why does it seem that?
Original sin. (if you subscribe to that notion)
creavolution writes:
even if I do make the right choice.. will I revert to a pre fall scenario? will I get to walk around naked? will I no longer have to toil?
catholic scientist writes:
I have no idea.
So why then do you believe
catholic scientist writes:
Evertime you make a decision between right and wrong you get that chance; when you choose wrong, you are 'eating the apple'
This message has been edited by Creavolution, 04-03-2006 05:36 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Protomenace
Junior Member (Idle past 6567 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 04-02-2006


Message 64 of 301 (300710)
04-03-2006 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by New Cat's Eye
04-03-2006 4:48 PM


So by your argument, these things(genes and environment) are totally random, and in that case not controlled by the person who finally ends up with the genes and such. It's still not that person's fault, and in any case, even if god made such things randomly, he would still know what the outcome would be. And even if he doesn't excercise this ability, it's still not the person's fault. They just got unlucky with their genes and upbringing.
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-03-2006 06:45 PM
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-03-2006 07:00 PM

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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 65 of 301 (300711)
04-03-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Heathen
04-03-2006 5:05 PM


Even if it is merely as a construct to attribute morality to?
Didn't sound like he was talking about a "construct," whatever that might look like. It sounded something like C.S. Lewis' idea that the fact that we are all moral creatures with strong moral opinions (whether we agree or not) is evidence for the existence of God. I never found his argument convincing, or maybe I didn't even understand it. But this reminded me of it, as if to say that all the human complaining about God's not suiting our own moral standards could only come from our being made in the image of God Himself even if we twist it around against Him.
This message has been edited by Faith, 04-03-2006 07:09 PM

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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 66 of 301 (300712)
04-03-2006 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Dan Carroll
04-03-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Not to worry
How does one choose to believe in something? Or to not believe in it?
Easy to answer for me because I got depressed a year or so ago and didn't even pray to God for about two months. Then after refuting him in my own mind, I CHOSE to believe again even though I had no reason to.
The O.P. is just a false dilemma. If God isn't a bad ass who I have good reason to disbelieve then he doesn't exist.
In other words; " I as an atheist don't want to believe in God therefore he's a meany if he exists and that's that ".
..Dan, just admitt that you think you knows it all. It's just arrogant personality when we think that, but if you're conscious of it then guess what bud? You're responsible for it. Just like I was.
It's like saying;
" God, I shot that guy but it was you who pulled the trigger because you made a few galaxies a couple of billion years back, do you remember ? "
" Objection. "
" Sustained ".
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 04-03-2006 07:10 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-03-2006 1:51 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 301 (300733)
04-03-2006 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by mike the wiz
04-03-2006 7:07 PM


Re: Not to worry
Easy to answer for me because I got depressed a year or so ago and didn't even pray to God for about two months. Then after refuting him in my own mind, I CHOSE to believe again even though I had no reason to.
Cool. Now choose to believe in magic rectum monkeys. They live in your bum, and grant wishes.
Seriously. Without any reason to do so, choose to believe, honestly and with all your heart, that they are real.
If you say you can, I call total freakin' shenanigans.
In other words
Dan, just admitt that you think
It's like saying
I also think you're really saying, "Dan is cool!"
And I thank you.
" God, I shot that guy but it was you who pulled the trigger because you made a few galaxies a couple of billion years back, do you remember ? "
Not believing in God is the same as shooting a guy? Interesting.

"We had survived to turn on the History Channel
And ask our esteemed panel, Why are we alive? And here's how they replied:
You're what happens when two substances collide
And by all accounts you really should have died."
-Andrew Bird

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by mike the wiz, posted 04-03-2006 7:07 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by mike the wiz, posted 04-05-2006 8:21 AM Dan Carroll has replied

DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6080 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 68 of 301 (300744)
04-03-2006 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Coragyps
04-03-2006 9:27 AM


They were told
quote:
Or at least because of the "sin" of a couple of mythical people who didn't even know what good and evil meant.........
They were told not to touch something and why. They did it anyways.
The child is told not to touch the hot pot. It doesn't really know that it is hot until it touches it. It can either believe what it is told, or it can live with the consequences.
They lived with the consequences of not believing what they were told.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 69 of 301 (300745)
04-03-2006 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by DorfMan
04-03-2006 9:43 PM


Re: They were told
Well said.

This message is a reply to:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 70 of 301 (300750)
04-03-2006 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by DorfMan
04-03-2006 9:43 PM


Re: They were told
They were told not to touch something and why. They did it anyways.
In a world where death supposedly did not exist, Adam was told not to eat that fruit or he would die that same day. Yeah. Let's tell that two-year-old toddler "refrain from touching the cooking vessel, as it might cause thermal damage to your epidermis and perhaps dermis."
It's a silly-assed story any way you slice it. Coyote had much better stories about him.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 71 of 301 (300751)
04-03-2006 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Coragyps
04-03-2006 10:06 PM


Re: They were told
Why does everybody assume that what the Bible says about something is ALL that happened? I would assume that to describe in some detail if far from exhaustively the creation and early days of planet earth and our first parents, just the first few chapters of Genesis, would take at least a few volumes the size of the Bible. In other words, it seems reasonable to expect that there was plenty of communication between God and his first couple, and no reason to doubt that they understood enough about the implications of the threat of death to have been appropriately warned. That is after all implied by the few words we are given. They were warned, they understood, they disobeyed. It's a common human story. What's the problem?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 72 of 301 (300754)
04-03-2006 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Faith
04-03-2006 10:12 PM


Re: They were told
Faith writes:
Why does everybody assume that what the Bible says about something is ALL that happened?
We don't assume that everything that happened was written down. We also don't fill in the blanks with whatever strikes our fancy.
If it ain't there, don't make it up.
This message has been edited by Ringo, 2006-04-03 08:24 PM

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 73 of 301 (300760)
04-03-2006 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by ringo
04-03-2006 10:23 PM


Re: They were told
If it ain't there, don't make it up.
You bet. And it isn't making anything up to assume that what happened supported and didn't contradict what is actually written, but you guys love to dream up contradictory scenarios. If it says they were told they would die, then the logical thing to assume, the fair thing to assume, is that they understood it, instead of imposing your own crazy ideas about what they could have understood for which there is no written support. Sheesh.

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 74 of 301 (300769)
04-04-2006 2:20 AM


Apparently the topic "is God cruel" is solely dependent upon a Christian fundamentalist or para-fundamentalist god. If the Bible is seen as parable instead of textbook, as strongly implied by the New Testament, then the defense of the critically-unexamined god loses necessity. The Bible itself may be a way in which God seperates the dogmatic, self-righteous, false-prophet, serving fundamentalist from the truly righteous, be they Christian, Bhuddist, Taoist, or Athiest, etc. based upon deeds instead of lies (knowing or otherwise).
There are many reasons to believe in God, none of which are within the perview of science. It is doing evil in this world which makes one deserving of hell, the existence of which, in the traditional sense, is as doubtful as the Santa Claus-like male false god of over-simplified fundamentalism.
No one who would presume salvation could within any moral framework criticize the work of a scientist such as Norman Blaloc in using the principles of heredity and evolution to create agricultural useful plants that have saved 2 billion lives in the last 40 years. If your god is against saving the lives of billions of people it is time to find a new God.
To me the cruelist thing a god could do is to give people a curious mind (which inherently leads to science) and then punish them for using it to help humanity.
This message has been edited by anglagard, 04-04-2006 02:23 AM

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 75 of 301 (300773)
04-04-2006 2:39 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
04-03-2006 11:41 PM


Re: They were told
Faith
You state here that
If it says they were told they would die, then the logical thing to assume, the fair thing to assume, is that they understood it
And in a previous post you atate
, just the first few chapters of Genesis, would take at l
east a few volumes the size of the Bible. In other words, it seems reasonable to expect that there was plenty of communication between God and his first couple, and no reason to doubt that they understood enough about the implications of the threat of death to have been appropriately warned.
Now at the beginning of this post you also state this
And it isn't making anything up to assume that what happened supported and didn't contradict what is actually written
Now what is actually written?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
In the DAY thou eatest thou shall surely die.
This is contradicted by the fact that banishment from the garden required that they did not die. But the word of God was that they would die and IN the day that they eat of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.
So tell me what crazy idea are you NOT going to present
"instead of imposing your own crazy ideas about what they could have understood for which there is no written support"
that allows for death to be guaranteed on the same day when the rest of the story contradicts that position.

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Replies to this message:
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