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Author Topic:   God is cruel
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 106 of 301 (300868)
04-04-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 12:15 PM


Re: Metas
Because I don't find them equally implausible.
Why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 107 of 301 (300870)
04-04-2006 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 12:15 PM


Re: Metas
Because I don't find them equally implausible.
How did you come to this conclusion given that they are equally unsupported by evidence?
Brian.
*Oops, just saw Ramoss' reply, I'll take your reply to him to cover both of us. Sorry bout that.
This message has been edited by Brian, Tuesday, 04-04-2006 01:02 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 12:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 1:22 PM Brian has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 301 (300873)
04-04-2006 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Brian
04-04-2006 1:01 PM


Re: Metas
Well this isn't the thread for and I don't really feel like, or have time for, a rationalization of my faith but I will quickly answer the question.
How did you come to this conclusion given that they are equally unsupported by evidence?
Lack of evidence doesn't bother me.
Evidence against can be a problem.
I think its obvious that humans did not emerge as described by Genesis. A simple lack of evidence for Jesus' divinity isn't going to end my faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 1:01 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 1:26 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 109 of 301 (300874)
04-04-2006 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 1:22 PM


Re: Metas
Evidence against can be a problem.
There's evidence against Jesus' exploits as well.
I think its obvious that humans did not emerge as described by Genesis.
I think it is obvious that men do not die and then come back to life three days later.
A simple lack of evidence for Jesus' divinity isn't going to end my faith.
With a little more faith you could believe in Genesis too?
Thanks for the replies.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 1:22 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 1:35 PM Brian has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 301 (300876)
04-04-2006 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Brian
04-04-2006 1:26 PM


Re: Metas
There's evidence against Jesus' exploits as well.
I think the evidence against Genesis is much stronger than the evidence against Jesus' exploits divinity.
With a little more faith you could believe in Genesis too?
Probably not, I can accept it as a possibility but I don't think it actually happened.
I think it is obvious that men do not die and then come back to life three days later.
But is it obvious that they never have?
Plus, if you believe in god, anything is possible. Why is Genesis not possible, you ask?, because of the strength of the evidence against it. The evidence agianst Jesus' isn't strong enough for me. Can I conceive of enough evidence to end my faith in Jesus? Yes, I can. What is it? I don't know, haven't thought about it much.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 1:26 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 111 of 301 (300889)
04-04-2006 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
04-03-2006 12:34 PM


Nicene Creed
Hi J,
But they are simply statements that define what a Christian believes, they do not preclude an Atheist from being saved.
The point I was making was in reference to this statement from post 18:
According to the Bible and the Creeds, God, for us and our salvation, came down from heaven and became man. There are no restrictions on who the "us" refers to.
According to the Nicene Creed, God did not come down for everyone, it clearly states who the 'us' are, and it certainly isn't atheists.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 04-03-2006 12:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by jar, posted 04-04-2006 2:36 PM Brian has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 112 of 301 (300892)
04-04-2006 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Brian
04-04-2006 2:21 PM


Re: Nicene Creed
According to your reading. However, I read it as unbounded. Just as man implies more than the subset "male of the species", it implies more than just the subset "Those who profess to believe in the Christian GOD".
The Creeds are a form of Club Membership statement. They are the things that define whether one is a member of the club, Christians, or not. They are not the Gospel, or the message, that IMHO Jesus brought.
Before going much further, I need to once again say that we are talking here of personal beliefs, and in the context of trying to establish whether or not GOD is cruel.
As I outlined in Message 6, if the three assumptions in the OP are true, then the answer is, "Yes, God is cruel."
I do not read the Creeds as excluding Atheists from salvation any more than it excludes women, however it does exclude them from membership in the club, "Christian."
In addition, I believe that the Bible clearly states that salvation will be a function of ones actions, how one behaves as opposed to what one believes or professes to believe.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Brian, posted 04-04-2006 2:21 PM Brian has not replied

Protomenace
Junior Member (Idle past 6567 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 04-02-2006


Message 113 of 301 (300902)
04-04-2006 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 11:53 AM


But the things(genes and environment) don't make the decision for the person, the person makes it so it is the person's fault. I don't suscribe to determinism, I think we have free will, I don't think that the decisions I'm going to make have already been made for me.
e, you still choose to sin. If, for some reason, you do something bad that was not a result of you choosing to do it, then that is not considered sinning, but there are bad things that you do that you choose to do, and those are sins.
Yes, the person makes the choice. He makes that choice based on his personality. He wasn't able to choose his personality. We are arguing in circles here. What will happen, will happen. The only option besides determinism, is complete randomness, which still doesn't help your argument.
So, if you do agree with your quote, why do you think that people who believe in god also hold people responsible for their actions?
For two reasons. First, they don't understand the concept I'm trying to get across. Second, if you don't punish someone for their actions they are likely to it again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 11:53 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 3:05 PM Protomenace has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 301 (300907)
04-04-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Protomenace
04-04-2006 2:54 PM


The only option besides determinism, is complete randomness
I disagree with this assertion. Perhaps you could explain to me why this is true.
they don't understand the concept I'm trying to get across
well you can put me in that boat

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 2:54 PM Protomenace has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:30 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Protomenace
Junior Member (Idle past 6567 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 04-02-2006


Message 115 of 301 (300928)
04-04-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 3:05 PM


You act as though people somehow choose their own personality. Where are they drawing this choice from then? Do we have an infinite chain of personalities choosing other personalities???
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-04-2006 04:32 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 3:05 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 4:38 PM Protomenace has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 301 (300935)
04-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Protomenace
04-04-2006 4:30 PM


You act as though people somehow choose their own personality.
I'm not acting as anything. I keep it real, wody.
Your personality does not make your decisions for you. You make the decision, consciously, your personality is just a part of you. You can't blame your choices on something else.
Do we have an infinite chain of personalities choosing other personalities???
I don't know what the hell you are typing about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:30 PM Protomenace has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Protomenace
Junior Member (Idle past 6567 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 04-02-2006


Message 117 of 301 (300937)
04-04-2006 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 4:38 PM


I'm not acting as anything. I keep it real, wody.
Your personality does not make your decisions for you. You make the decision, consciously, your personality is just a part of you. You can't blame your choices on something else.
Did I choose to be me? No.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 4:38 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 4:47 PM Protomenace has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 118 of 301 (300940)
04-04-2006 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Protomenace
04-04-2006 4:43 PM


Did I choose to be me? No.
and that wasn't a conscious decision, nor a sin.
but some of the things you do are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:43 PM Protomenace has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:53 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Protomenace
Junior Member (Idle past 6567 days)
Posts: 15
Joined: 04-02-2006


Message 119 of 301 (300943)
04-04-2006 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by New Cat's Eye
04-04-2006 4:47 PM


Let's start over. What do you think makes up a person, and more specifically, what do you think are all of the factors on his decision making?
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-04-2006 05:15 PM
This message has been edited by protomenace, 04-04-2006 05:21 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 4:47 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-04-2006 5:22 PM Protomenace has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 301 (300959)
04-04-2006 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Protomenace
04-04-2006 4:53 PM


Let's start over.
No thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 4:53 PM Protomenace has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Protomenace, posted 04-04-2006 5:27 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

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