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Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 256 (458849)
03-02-2008 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Percy
02-25-2008 9:10 PM


Problems from the start.
Hello Percy, I've been thinking about this for a while now, and I have a couple of comments:
How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?
Translation: how do we determine whether something non-material exists by examining only material evidence? I'm not saying that god is non-material, just using this as an analogy.
For myself, I would approach this question by asking what differences might exist between a world created by God and another world that came about in the absence of a God.
The problem here is only having one set of data, one that you can't tell whether it is created or not.
How would gravity be different in a created universe versus one that came about in the absence of a god? One could argue that in a chance formed universe that things would behave according to simple basic laws that could be easily determined, like Newtonian gravity, while in a created universe the closer you looked the more mystery was involved.
How would matter\energy be different in a created universe versus one that came about in the absence of a god? One could argue that in a chance formed universe that things would be formed of simple particles, particles that are stable over time and different from energy, while in a created universe one can become the other at whim, and the closer you looked the more mystery was involved.
Thus one can argue that a self formed universe would be necessarily simpler than the one we see, while a created universe would necessarily be complicated due to complexity added by the creation of something more than a simple universe.
Which would be expected to have more wars, more prejudice, more disease, more disasters? Certainly we seem to have enough of these to suspect the possibility of an absence of God in this world.
Was that the purpose of creation?
If the purpose was entertainment, then the fact that we entertain ourselves with historical and fictional accounts of such things would show that this purpose is fulfilled.
If the purpose is to compose a 4-dimensional kaleidoscope, the existence of certain life forms and their peculiar peccadilloes may be incidental "noise" in the system.
Say there were no Bible, no Qur'an, no Bhagavad Gita, no religious texts of any sort.
Humans seem particularly adept at developing religious texts without needing a particular starting point, in every culture known. If god existed and could be partially perceived by occasional mystics in some necessarily incomplete manner (due to the vast complexity of god), then we would logically expect many different religious texts.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Percy, posted 02-25-2008 9:10 PM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 3:35 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1426 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 189 of 256 (458895)
03-02-2008 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by cavediver
03-02-2008 3:35 PM


Re: Problems from the start.
It's immensely complex, with fun things like transfinite singularities and no reasonable causal structure.
Right - those transfinite singularities would not exist and there would be no causes. Things would just happen. Billiard balls. The simple universe would be like a cartoon of what we actually see. There would be no need for general relativity.
Don't foget that your mystery is our "oh, of course. How simple, how aesthetic. Now we know, how could we have ever thought otherwise?"
The point is that you can't argue that a created universe would be different from what you see, because you don't know whether it was created or not.
What it comes down to, is that any "predictions" of what the other kind of universe would be like, are all strawmen.
Where-as the whole of GR was written down over breakfast by Hilbert in the astonishingly beautiful
Ah, we can all go home now, job done. No more mysteries. Well done.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 3:35 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by cavediver, posted 03-02-2008 4:30 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
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