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Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 256 (458335)
02-28-2008 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Percy
02-27-2008 9:05 AM


Re: What If
Percy writes:
But the only change I'm postulating to the real world is that all religious texts (and the knowledge contained therein) do not exist. The world is otherwise just as we find it today. Would there be no new miracles, no new fulfilled prophecies, that men could observe and conclude that there must be a God?
We have observed numerous such human cultures throughout human history. To my knowledge, without exception all human cultures have concluded the existence of the supernatural.
I believe all pagan religions have emerged from conceptions in the human mind as to what the explanation is. Many have devised and created their own concept of a god. Some have progressed to produce literature relative to their religions after having conceived of their version of a god.
Many recorded and observable pagan cultures experience miracle in their religions. Voodoo, witchcraft, spiritism and other such manifestations have been experienced among pagan cultures. Many have what they consider to be holy men or women who have seer capabilities.
That all cultures in history have been religious may be the answer to your questions.
Evidently humans simply observe the wonders of nature and conclude that beings of a higher realm exist. Perhaps part of this lies in the mental properties of the brain, human DNA, etc which have a religious propensity to seek out who/what god is.
My personal thinking is that the fact that only humans have this capacity is explained in Genesis where we read that man was created in the image of God.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Percy, posted 02-27-2008 9:05 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by mark24, posted 02-28-2008 2:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 41 by Rahvin, posted 02-28-2008 3:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 256 (458380)
02-28-2008 5:36 PM


Missed point
Mark24 and Rahvin, you both appear to stray from Percy's question and the point made in my answer.
Percy writes:
But the only change I'm postulating to the real world is that all religious texts (and the knowledge contained therein) do not exist. The world is otherwise just as we find it today. Would there be no new miracles, no new fulfilled prophecies, that men could observe and conclude that there must be a God?
Percy's postulation:
No existing texts (and the knowledge contained therein) Otherwise the world is as we see it today.
Percy's question:
Would observable miracles and/or prophecies supportive to a god arise?
My answer was to the effect that since acclaimed miracle and prophecy have in the past been observed among primitive pagan cultures which had no texts it is likely that they would arise.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 256 (458704)
03-01-2008 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Percy
03-01-2008 8:00 AM


Re: Does Established Evidence Exist?
Percy writes:
CTD writes:
We seem to have established that there is ample evidence available in the world for even the underprivileged souls who lack access to the scripture to discover that a Creator exists.
You mean this has been established in this thread? I don't think so.
The opening post asks the question, "Say there were no Bible, no Qur'an, no Bhagavad Gita, no religious texts of any sort. How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?"
Both Ray and I have cited evidences which lend observable support to the existence of a creator outside of written text. I cited the fact that all cultures throughout human history have been religious whether primitive or civilized. I cited in that message as well the acclaimed powers of seers and witch doctors etc which most have had in their cultures. This goes all the way from pagan jungle tribes to the major world kingdoms of human history.
Ray and I see this as coming from the observance of the wonders of creation. I see it as not only that, but evidence for existing supernatural powers comprising both good and evil realms empowering humans to perform miracle.
In Romans 1:20 the apostle Paul alluded to this in his contention that unbelievers were without excuse. Paul said essentially that the invisible things were perceived by the things which were made/created. He went on later in context to criticise them for turning to worshipping the creatures rather than the creator.
Edited by Buzsaw, : provide link

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 03-01-2008 8:00 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by DrJones*, posted 03-01-2008 5:54 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 112 by Granny Magda, posted 03-01-2008 5:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 117 by bluegenes, posted 03-01-2008 6:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 123 by Straggler, posted 03-01-2008 7:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 256 (458796)
03-02-2008 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by DrJones*
03-01-2008 5:54 PM


Re: Does Established Evidence Exist?
DrJones writes:
No you asserted that.
And your rebuttal to the assertion is?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by DrJones*, posted 03-01-2008 5:54 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Admin, posted 03-02-2008 9:41 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 183 by DrJones*, posted 03-02-2008 2:08 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 147 of 256 (458803)
03-02-2008 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 112 by Granny Magda
03-01-2008 5:57 PM


Re: Does Established Evidence Exist?
GM writes:
But does this really prove that those religions are true? They certainly can't all be true. In fact they are wildly different to each other. Trying to say that they all support the same God seems bizarre. Wouldn't it be just as reasonable to suggest that the real reason for the ubiquity of religion is the human propensity toward superstitious explanations for any inexplicable phenomena?
There is no requirement for them to be true to make my point which was that since all cultures have been religious all cultures appear to assume a higher realm of intelligence present in the universe. The implication is that there must be some validity to the acclaimed miraculous powers evidenced among them. As well, the implication is that the only likely reason for them to all be religious would be observance of the wonders of creation, some of which they even worshipped.
MG writes:
Even if we do accept that humans worldwide have experienced the supernatural, why would we automatically assume that this proves God? Might it not just as easily prove the existence of ancestor spirits or djinn? The same goes for any argument from design based on nature. As ID'ists love to point out, the designer might not necessarily be God. It could be aliens, extra-dimensional beings or pixies.
I've not been arguing that it proves God. My point all along is that it evidences a supernatural realm whether good or evil. Most cultures see some supreme being as the chief god of all creation.
MG writes:
Stories about miracles don't prove god. They only prove that we like telling stories.
Again, I didn't say it proves anything. All I said is that it is evidence of the probability of the supernatural.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Granny Magda, posted 03-01-2008 5:57 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by bluegenes, posted 03-02-2008 10:29 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 154 by Granny Magda, posted 03-02-2008 10:40 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 149 of 256 (458806)
03-02-2008 10:17 AM


The Religiosity Of Human Cultures
Dr Jones, I assumed all here were apprised enough on the fact that human cultures have been religious since the recording of human history began that the claim is more than assertion. Most here so far have agreed to that.
Anyone having the most basic knowledge of world history are aware that all of the major world kingdoms have been highly religious. I'm sure there's none of us here who aren't aware that no matter where one might penetrate into the deepest jungles, into the icy frozen lands of the Eskamoes or the nomadic desert tribes or to the highest civilizations, the cultures are religious and have always been so.
That this knowledge is so common, to go back into history and name all the major cultures and world kingdoms, citing their respective beliefs would require another topic which I consider a waste of time. Even if you were to come up with some exception it would not be sufficient to negate my point. LOL!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 10:46 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 256 (458809)
03-02-2008 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by lyx2no
03-02-2008 10:02 AM


Re: Arriving At Assumptions
How about adding to the mix some healthy reason and logic?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by lyx2no, posted 03-02-2008 10:02 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 10:37 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 205 by lyx2no, posted 03-04-2008 12:26 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 256 (459106)
03-03-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
03-02-2008 2:08 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc I addressed you here . That my statement regarding religious cultures was valid is from stuff I learned in grammar school geography and history lessons. By the time I was out of grammar school I was aware that all cultures including the biggies were religious. If you can't understand this I'm afraid I can't help you.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by DrJones*, posted 03-02-2008 2:08 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by DrJones*, posted 03-04-2008 1:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 256 (459165)
03-04-2008 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by DrJones*
03-04-2008 1:16 AM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc, now you're skirting around my point. Whether you call it superstition, religion or whatever the point is that all cultures from the simplest to the most sophisticated have had it deeply rooted into the culture. For the umpteenth time, my point is that all cultures which observe the wonders around them have had a religious bent due to the belief in a realm of intelligence above that of humanity. They consider the powers of that realm such that such they have some control over the management of nature. Most have believed that a supreme god/creator presides over it all.
Acclaimed miracle has been associated with all cultures as well to the best of my knowledge.
Imo, absent from written text, Christianity would never have become the most prominent religion of the world. The powers of darkness would have been such that evil would likely have overtaken humanity to the extent that humans would have become extinct a long time ago. The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by DrJones*, posted 03-04-2008 1:16 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2008 12:56 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 212 by Rahvin, posted 03-04-2008 1:14 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 213 by bluegenes, posted 03-04-2008 1:22 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 214 by DrJones*, posted 03-04-2008 2:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 226 of 256 (459572)
03-08-2008 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Chiroptera
03-04-2008 12:56 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Chiroptera writes:
Buzsaw writes:
The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.
Hmm. Actually, I've always felt that the Industrial Revolution was the result of the depravity of humankind.
Off-topic, I know; this is just a short note making explicit the problems of stating your idiosyncratic visions of history as if they were undisputed fact.
1. Name one nation or culture having no knowledge of Biblibal scriptural text which contributed to the Industrial Revolution.
2. The technology of the Industrial Revolution has blessed the cultures of humanity who follow the principles of the NT textual scriptures. The US of A exemplifies the freedom, prosperity and lifestyle enjoyed by the more fundamentalist NT textual cultures which enjoy the blessings of those textual principles.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Chiroptera, posted 03-04-2008 12:56 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Percy, posted 03-08-2008 5:11 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 256 (459631)
03-08-2008 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chiroptera
03-08-2008 6:09 PM


Re: How About This?
My apologies for going off topic. I'll leave off on that but how about this?
If there were no texts and a god did exist like Jehovah it is likely it would be to his best interest to reveal himself in more personal and direct ways to the early intelligent humans which he created. I cannot conceive of a supreme god which would bother to create beings with intelligence being formed in his image without revealing himself to the creatures.
This in fact, was the case with Adam and Eve. There was likely no textual scriptures but a manifestation of God was revealed to them in the garden. Likely there existed no textual scriptures for a lengthy period of time.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chiroptera, posted 03-08-2008 6:09 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 12:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 256 (459739)
03-09-2008 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Straggler
03-09-2008 12:11 PM


Re: How About This?
Straggler, you're leading off topic and I'm not going there again. The OP question is about how knowledge of God would be known without written text. I've shown that humans have known by revelation according to the Biblical record.
Obviously the knowledge was either not passed down or not received by descendents of those to whom revelation was given.
To go into why written text was not initially established is another topic as well as your points pertaining to textual problems.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 12:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 6:11 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 233 of 256 (459802)
03-09-2008 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Straggler
03-09-2008 6:11 PM


Re: God Against ID - ???
So what's wrong with personal revelation? We'd all be awed at that wouldn't we?
As for written text, we have it now chock full of fulfilled or fulfilling prophecy and nobody here seems to care. Besides, who of you people believe the record we have? Why do you think a written text which would likely read as it is given in the beginning would make a difference?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Straggler, posted 03-09-2008 6:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 03-10-2008 5:13 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 235 of 256 (460418)
03-14-2008 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by Straggler
03-10-2008 5:13 AM


Re: God Against ID - ???
Straggler writes:
It seems that your answer (and God’s) is that it is not possible from the natural world alone.
Imo, the more we learn about the natural world relative to complexity, the more we should look beyond NS and RM for the answers and the less excuse we should have for not accepting ID creationism. Of course I know that most here do not agree with that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Straggler, posted 03-10-2008 5:13 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2008 7:43 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 237 of 256 (460477)
03-15-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Straggler
03-15-2008 7:43 AM


Re: God Against ID - ???
Straggler writes:
So, to get back to the OP, how do you propose that this be done without the aid of any religious texts?
Direct revelation alone seems to be the only answer according to you . Thus those who wrote the bible must have either had direct interraction with God or else made large parts of it up.
Imo the OP proposition is a highly unlikely one. I cannot conceive of a supreme deity who would expend creative effort in intelligent beings created after his own likeness without revelation to these creatures about himself and a code of conduct for them.
As to the credibility of those who wrote the Bible, that lies in verification of it's record after all is said and done. I repeat, after all is said and done.
In the mean time, for those who have no text due to the carelessness of forebears who failed to pass it down, the only thing they have for thinking about how things came to be is observation of complex things, both organic an inorganic. The tendency, according to human history appears to be to look to the supernatural.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Straggler, posted 03-15-2008 7:43 AM Straggler has not replied

  
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