We know there's a God because...

Say there were no Bible, no Qur'an, no Bhagavad Gita, no religious texts of any sort. How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?For myself, I would approach this question by asking what differences might exist between a world created by God and another world that came about in the absence of a God. Which would be expected to have more wars, more prejudice, more disease, more disasters? Certainly we seem to have enough of these to suspect the possibility of an absence of God in this world.I'm interested in how others might approach this question, and what answers they think are suggested.--Percy

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.Admin doesn't seem to be interested in this topic, so I guess it's up to me to promote it. Besides, it was starting to attract flies (or is it just Percy's avatar). AdminnemooseusEdited by Adminnemooseus, : Add post promotion message.

I don't see how having lots of contradictory religious texts helps anyone "know" that there's a God in the first place.I'd say that we'd have to look for signs of teleology. A bit like what Randman spends so much of his time doing in every area of science possible, but with less obvious desire, and more objectivity.

We know the God Prometheus exists because we have fire.

I think that it would be easy to invent gods that would be consistant with the universe as we know it. I don't think there is anything that would suggest the existance of any particular god though and I'm not sure we would accomplish anything worthwhile by inventing beings that add nothing to our understanding of the universe.

Your approach is to first set aside existing religious texts. You then intend to create your own 'religious text' by creating a god-in-own-image-and-likeness against which to compare the world around you. I mean, how can you say what could be expected of a world created by a god without projecting your own image and likeness onto that god?I don't know about the other texts but the Bible describes the world pretty much as it is: creation corrupt and groaning with mankind ravaged by sin and death. The Bible also indicates that man cannot get to God under his own steam so I can suggest no approach running along the lines you're suggesting.Edited by iano, : No reason given.

I think the fact that there is, to some extent, some order to the universe in the form of natural laws, such as gravity, is where people would place there bets. It is commonly believed that some form, some shape of order exists. If this is true then there might be someone, most often believed to be some kind of human-God, that is presiding, and, possibly, intervening, in the universe.That is where I think most "God-fearing" people would place there bets. I think this question rests entirely on what your defintion of God is. Again, this depends on what your defintion of God is. If your definition of God lies similar to the God of Shiva, then the wars, prejudice, disease, and disasters might be used as evidence that this particular God exists.Shiva - Wikipedia

It's just as reasonable (or, more accurately, unreasonable) to create one's own God as it is to believe in any of the Gods created by others. Certainly. Moses, for example, had a murderous God in his head because he was a harsh and murderous patriarch. Christ appears to have been more of a rebel hippy pacifist type. Mohamed was more in the Moses line, a warrior with a great taste for stoning people to death, etc.Strangely enough, the cultures inspired by all three Abrahamic religions seem to come out with equal amounts of murderous type stuff, and "peace 'n love" stuff, which probably shows that human behaviour is pretty similar in superstition based cultures regardless of the specific prevailing superstition. It describes a specific culture, or series of related cultures, in a particularly harsh semi-desert environment, and this gives character to the locally invented Gods, who seem to differ as time goes on. Either one God being continually reinvented, or several Gods, depending on how you look at it. What the Bible indicates in relation to the O.P. question is only relevant to the world minority who believe that it's the word of God.I repeat what I said earlier in the thread, that the only way to assess whether or not there's a God would be to increase our understanding of the universe, and see if we can identify signs of teleology. We can no longer rely on prophets, seers, and visionaries, because these have been thoroughly discredited by the increased understanding of neurological conditions such as epilepsy and schizophrenia.

Address that point to Percy. He's the one doing it. This doesn't address the point made. I'm not quite sure how you managed to miss the Bibles claim of universal application. I'm sure Percy won't have. Not true. It either relates to all (if true) or no one (if false). What a person believes is irrelevant. Would you not have to be making assumptions about the god you apply teleology to in order to teleologise in the first place? And create a god-in-own-image in so doing?

But the only change I'm postulating to the real world is that all religious texts (and the knowledge contained therein) do not exist. The world is otherwise just as we find it today. Would there be no new miracles, no new fulfilled prophecies, that men could observe and conclude that there must be a God?--Percy

I understand that.But you must be referring to some religious text (even if it's your own made up one) in order for your approach to get off the ground. If not from such a text, where else would you get your ideas about the world a God would make? You would agree that your approach does need some idea of the world a potential God would make in order to compare it to the world you see around you. Your approach for clarities sake: Below is a sample of your religious text (italicised). You seem to be saying that evidence for the absence of God can be gleaned from the presence of war etc. Your idea of God requires that he, if he exists and made the world, would not make one with war and disease etc. Where did this idea come from if not god-made-in-your-image? .

Hi Percy The world and especially the US would not be as it is today.The US was populated by people leaving religious persecution in European countries. They came to America to be able to worship God without interference from the Government.This nation was founded by God fearing men on the principals they found in the Bible.Take that away and what would you have?If memory serves me correctly when we had Bible reading and prayer in school this was the most feared nation in the world.We removed those because it offended a few people.Now this nation is the laughing stock of the world.So Percy we would have pretty much what we have today.People would believe that they are their own God and do as they please.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Haha, ICANT, I don't have the time to argue with you right now. Just the following quotes from you gave me a good laugh. If you can't see what's wrong with those statements or how they contradict each other... I guess I shouldn't be laughing.

ICANT,You completely failed to address the OP...Without religious texts (& indeed, with) we would need to know something of god/s, & how they would create the universe in order to predict phenomena that would lead us to potential evidence that creation occurred.Since we don't, we can't. No, that's because you have a christian prick as president.Mark

History lesson time: The Puritans did not found the United States. The Puritans had essentially disappeared before the signing of the Declaration of Independence. The Founding Fathers consisted of Christians, yes, but also of Deists, and Thomas Jefferson, who once produced his own version of the Bible that completely removed any and all "miracles" (including Creation, Jesus' resurrection, etc) because he considered it all to be superstitious nonsense.The US was populated not only by those fearing religious persecution (ironically, those settlements perpetrated the most religious persecution, as anyone not agreeing with their specific interpretation of the Bible could be executed or banished, which amounted to the same thing). The thirteen colonies also consisted of businessmen seeking fortunes in new markets, and regular people wanting a fresh start.Saying the US was founded on Christianity is a blatant falsehood. Just read the Constitution, and count how many times "god" or "Jesus" are mentioned.Then read the Treaty of Tripoli, in which the government of the United States agreed that we are in no way a "Christian nation." Treaties, if you know your law, are held as the highest law of the land along with the Constitution. The same country, but with fewer of the idiotic leftover hangups from the Puritans, like the way it was illegal to buy and sell sex toys in Texas until just a few weeks ago. And probably with fewer fundamentalist anti-science bigoted luddites.I'd count it a much better place. Oh, we're still feared, and primarily because our President is a fundamentalist anti-science idiot with the brainpower of a retarded dodo backed up by the strongest military force in the world.That last part, the military force, was why we were considered "strong." We weren't nearly destroyed after WWII like most of Europe. We had our infrastructure intact, and a large enough population to pick up stronger than when we left off. Not "offended," ICANT. It violated their rights. I have the right to not have a Christian's rhetoric forced down my throat at events sponsored by the government, which supposedly represents all of us, from Christians, to Muslims, to Jews, Hindus, Pagans, Wiccans, and Atheists. And everything I left out. The Constitution is quite clear that, in order to protect all beliefs, the government must remain strictly neutral and practice a hands-off policy. The fact that this was not followed for a long time doesn't change the fact that it was unconstitutional, which is why we no longer have prayer in public schools, and why some are working to remove "under god" from the Pledge (where, amusingly enough, it was added in the 1950s to combat the "godless commies"). Because we still have large segments of the population, up to and including the freaking President, that still believe in Creationism, and have the scientific understanding of a braindamaged Neanderthal. I'd laugh too, if I didn't live here. If it wouldn't earn me a suspension...If you'd like to talk about American history, ICANT, feel free to start a thread. Your falsehoods would fill volumes, I'm sure.