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Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 196 of 256 (458917)
03-02-2008 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Straggler
03-02-2008 5:37 PM


Re: To Text or Not to Text
Straggler
A world without the bible or any other similar religious text has been the norm for the majority of human existence.
War and the various other evils under consideration still took place. How could the people be expected to draw the same conclusions that you consider so evident without the help of the texts you consider so fundamental to your way of thinking?
This is not unscientific speculation. It is history.
The world you talk of, in which the texts in question exist and are readily available and accessible to those who seek them out, is a very recent development in human culture.
Very well said...
If evolution were a fact, then your point would stand. As it is, your reasoning is actually circular. You assume that people existed for many millions of years based upon a materialistic philosophical interpretation of history.
It also assumes that people are more capable and sensitive today to their own logical faculties. This is also unfounded.
The fact that the earliest ancient texts actually reveal incredibly rich logical and cognitive function (arguabley more logical than modern man's 'wisdom') should tell us that logical thought was common long before writing was used to digitize it.
You see, my point, is that the texts are not the issue. It is thought itself that is the key.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 5:37 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 7:02 PM Rob has replied

  
Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3977
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 197 of 256 (458918)
03-02-2008 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Rob
03-02-2008 6:02 PM


The Rob/Straggler "Great Debate" is now open

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 6:02 PM Rob has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 198 of 256 (458920)
03-02-2008 6:12 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by Percy
03-02-2008 5:55 PM


Percy:
Just to make sure, so now you *are* addressing the hypothetical? Or is this just another way of saying the hypothetical makes no sense to you?
Yes to the first question.
Percy:
If you former, then am I correct to summarize your position this way: that the mere fact that you're conscious and can think indicates that there must be a God. If so, then what is it about your examination of the world around us that would lead you to this conclusion?
As to your summary, it doesn't indicate that there 'must be a god', it indicates that we would have philosphical discussions about all this, and the religous texts that we do.
As to your question... aren't you the one who said that would be off topic?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by Percy, posted 03-02-2008 5:55 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 199 of 256 (458931)
03-02-2008 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Rob
03-02-2008 6:02 PM


Re: To Text or Not to Text
Ignoring evolution -
However long you think the human race has been in existence there will necessarily be a period of time in which no religious texts yet exist.
You have stated that you are unwilling to even consider the 'hypothetical' question of a textless world.
But unless the texts existed before people this must have factually existed.
How does your position deal with the evils committed by people during this period of time?
How were they rejecting a god they could know nothing of?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 6:02 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 03-04-2008 1:30 AM Straggler has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22621
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 200 of 256 (458936)
03-02-2008 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Rob
03-02-2008 6:12 PM


Rob writes:
As to your summary, it doesn't indicate that there 'must be a god', it indicates that we would have philosphical discussions about all this, and the religous texts that we do.
Having religious texts is not what was posed by hypothetical question in the OP, which is what I just finished being very, very clear about in my last two posts. Now I combine that with what you say next:
As to your question... aren't you the one who said that would be off topic?
I don't know what your problem is, but I don't care, and a smilie face doesn't make it all better. Given your history it doesn't take much to suspend you, and I'm not going to wait. See you in 24 hours.
--Percy

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 Message 198 by Rob, posted 03-02-2008 6:12 PM Rob has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5955 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


(1)
Message 201 of 256 (458984)
03-03-2008 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Percy
03-01-2008 8:00 AM


Re: Who couldn't see it coming?
quote:
You mean this has been established in this thread? I don't think so.
The opening post asks the question, "Say there were no Bible, no Qur'an, no Bhagavad Gita, no religious texts of any sort. How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?"
Can you answer this question? Iano appears to disagree that such evidence exists. He believes that unless God reveals himself to you that it isn't possible to know he exists with certainty.
--Percy
I have already answered it, and multiple methods of obtaining and following evidence have been presented.
Knowing that things were created is a separate issue one would probably need to resolve before proceeding to try to identify the entity. I'm not sure Iano is talking about the exact same thing. Salvation is a direct revelation from God, but this isn't required to know He exists.
And Iano hasn't been established as an authority in any case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Percy, posted 03-01-2008 8:00 AM Percy has not replied

  
CTD
Member (Idle past 5955 days)
Posts: 253
Joined: 03-11-2007


Message 202 of 256 (458989)
03-03-2008 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by mark24
03-01-2008 9:45 AM


Re: Who couldn't see it?
I already did provide the method.
Oh! I left out the last little, self-evident step. Obtain a ratio by dividing unsafe time by safe time.
Now this wouldn't be self-evident to one who hasn't yet been taught math at that level. Do you know what ratios are, or do you need a link?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by mark24, posted 03-01-2008 9:45 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 203 of 256 (458992)
03-03-2008 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by CTD
03-03-2008 7:37 AM


Re: Who couldn't see it?
Hi CTD,
You were already suspended by the time I noticed this message, so I'll take no further action but just post this note.
Please engage the discussion sincerely and seriously. If you can fill a response with no more than bluster ("I already did provide the method.") and reactions to feelings of pique ("Do you know what ratios are?") then please do not post.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 256 (459106)
03-03-2008 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by DrJones*
03-02-2008 2:08 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc I addressed you here . That my statement regarding religious cultures was valid is from stuff I learned in grammar school geography and history lessons. By the time I was out of grammar school I was aware that all cultures including the biggies were religious. If you can't understand this I'm afraid I can't help you.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by DrJones*, posted 03-02-2008 2:08 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by DrJones*, posted 03-04-2008 1:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4802 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 205 of 256 (459114)
03-04-2008 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Buzsaw
03-02-2008 10:24 AM


Re: Arriving At Assumptions
How about adding to the mix some healthy reason and logic?
Sorry for the delay; Out of town.
It is through healthy reason and logic that one determines what falsifying experiments would best fit the circumstances.
And healthy reason and logic that allows one to recognize that one wants to falsify ones own hypothesis before someone does it for them, and they the fool.
I suppose it would be good of me to say something to the OP in this post somewhere.
Generally, can anyone out there tell me why God wouldn’t just use magic to make everything work? From all of what I’ve heard from the pro-C side of these posts it would be well within his abilities.
Edited by lyx2no, : To address the OP.

Kindly
******
Fishing for complements without bait.

This message is a reply to:
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DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 206 of 256 (459118)
03-04-2008 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 204 by Buzsaw
03-03-2008 10:27 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc I addressed you here
Yes once again a post full of assertions but no evidence. But whether or not you're wrong about all cultures being religious is irrelevant. As has been pointed out to you repeatedly people succumbing to superstititon does not make the supernatural real. What's more beivable? some sort of supernatural realm undetectable by science and possesing attributes unique to each person "experiencing" it or people making shit up cause they don't understand and/or are scared by the world? If you can't understand this I'm afraid I can't help you.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 207 of 256 (459121)
03-04-2008 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 199 by Straggler
03-02-2008 7:02 PM


Re: To Text or Not to Text
Straggler:
However long you think the human race has been in existence there will necessarily be a period of time in which no religious texts yet exist.
You have stated that you are unwilling to even consider the 'hypothetical' question of a textless world.
But unless the texts existed before people this must have factually existed.
So much for my strengthened, grand, and level-headed re-entry...
While going for the juggular, the truth Himself tripped me flat! I noticed the problem after my last reply, but was unable to respond due to other matters...
Very good Straggler.
I wish I could tell you that this was all a grand strategy on my part, but that would be false.
Ironically, it makes way for an answer to Percy's question.
Now that we can all acknowledge that Percy's question is not hypothetical, we are presented with a very unlikely situation.
How, and why exactly... would men invent God's that serve to restrict them? Especially a God like the biblical one, who (long before it was written, led people on a what to most of them, was a mysterious, long term historical journey with little in the way of immediate material satisfaction...
That is the sum of the question. I do not intend to argue it fully myself. You made me remember that C.S. Lewis had mentioned this very question in one of his books. Perhaps I can find it later. I know you are all eager to read it.
He makes the case (somewhat in the way I am framing it) that the whole proposal is entirely unlikely compared to what we should expect; except, for the possibility that man always knew about God, because man had begun life in contact with God.
All the other stories of gods would have evolved from the original story, though slightly modified each time to the benefit of differring cultural proclivities. I am by no means giving justice to the argument in it's details, but had not even considered it worthy of remembering until you jogged my memory.
I guess it wasn't a particualrly troublesome doubt or mystery for me personally compared to others.
My apologies for leaving it there. If you want it, you can read some Lewis. But I might be able to paste a copy of Lewis' argument later.
I don't have time at the moment to battle two fronts, and appearently my head is not yet level enough to handle it either. I had buried all of those personal feelings having been gone six months. They ressurrected quickly.
Straggler:
How does your position deal with the evils committed by people during this period of time?
How were they rejecting a god they could know nothing of?
Well despte my arguments earlier which were maladjusted, it would be just the opposite actually. They would have known better than anyone that there was a God, the further back toward the beginning we went.
Their rebellion would have been overtly evil and intentional compared to many of our modern civilizations where God in some quarters is not well known or understood other than as a religion. It isn't a reality to us today as a culture as it was then. As such, there destruction and judgement by God would have been expected by them. Their fear was not unfounded. It was real.
We must understand that even if man knows God, he often still rejects Him in a deliberate attempt to be God and claim his life as his own creation.
A little personal story...I actually confessed to my pastor about a year ago, that my struggles and misery were so intense... that if it were in my power, I would forget God. It is simply not convenient in this climate to believe. Maybe 50 years ago, maybe at some other time. But this time, is a time of severe testing for people like myself.
I actually wanted to forget Him. But I am not that strong.
I cannot deny what I actually believe to be true. I may not want to know certian things at times, like anyone else. But once I know, there's no going back for me. I follow Him wherever He leads. And often kicking and screaming. I don't understand where i am going. I just believe He does.
If it was blind faith, I could repent of it. But it is seeing faith. There is nothing more radical that meeting God. It is either the greatest revelation, or the greatest insanity.
Anyway... my own experience with all this helps me to understand why they would do it. Why people would suffer through such a thing and appearently waste their life. Only because they actually made contact with God as the Bible said. It's the only reason I believe it. Because I know there is going to be a ressurection, having met the risen Lord.
It's like Paul said, 1 Corinthians 15:14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
We understand the implications quite clearly and sanely.
Anyway, you do what you want with this. I am going to focus on our great debate.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Straggler, posted 03-02-2008 7:02 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 208 of 256 (459124)
03-04-2008 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 206 by DrJones*
03-04-2008 1:16 AM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc:
As has been pointed out to you repeatedly people succumbing to superstititon does not make the supernatural real. What's more beivable? some sort of supernatural realm undetectable by science and possesing attributes unique to each person "experiencing" it or people making shit up cause they don't understand and/or are scared by the world?
Methodological naturalism can detect the supernatural (the quantum), it just cannot say anything intelligible about it. What is science part 2 - rob_lock LiveJournal John Polkinghorne, proffessor of quantum at Cambridge will set you straight if you read his book 'One World'.
For instance, M/N makes us frame a question in this way, 'what is energy?'
Methodological naturalism (which is not science btw -see link) can only tell us what energy does. It cannot speak to what, or who energy is.
The part that get's me... is that energy is defined (by scientists) as 'the capacity to do work'.
Do you know what Jesus said? He said, "my father is always working to this very day and I too am working".
Jesus has a lot of capacity... according to His own ecclesiastical proclamation. I mean really now... who does He think He is? God?
In light of Doc's comments, I plead for the magistrate to see that the definition of science rears it's head quite naturally in this setting.
Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 209 of 256 (459127)
03-04-2008 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rob
03-04-2008 1:30 AM


Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
Rob writes:
Now that we can all acknowledge that Percy's question is not hypothetical...
What?!!!!!
See you tomorrow.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 03-04-2008 1:30 AM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2008 6:55 PM Admin has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 256 (459165)
03-04-2008 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by DrJones*
03-04-2008 1:16 AM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Doc, now you're skirting around my point. Whether you call it superstition, religion or whatever the point is that all cultures from the simplest to the most sophisticated have had it deeply rooted into the culture. For the umpteenth time, my point is that all cultures which observe the wonders around them have had a religious bent due to the belief in a realm of intelligence above that of humanity. They consider the powers of that realm such that such they have some control over the management of nature. Most have believed that a supreme god/creator presides over it all.
Acclaimed miracle has been associated with all cultures as well to the best of my knowledge.
Imo, absent from written text, Christianity would never have become the most prominent religion of the world. The powers of darkness would have been such that evil would likely have overtaken humanity to the extent that humans would have become extinct a long time ago. The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by DrJones*, posted 03-04-2008 1:16 AM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
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