Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9175 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: sirs
Post Volume: Total: 917,648 Year: 4,905/9,624 Month: 253/427 Week: 63/103 Day: 7/14 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   We know there's a God because...
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 211 of 256 (459166)
03-04-2008 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
03-04-2008 12:45 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.
Hmm. Actually, I've always felt that the Industrial Revolution was the result of the depravity of humankind.
Off-topic, I know; this is just a short note making explicit the problems of stating your idiosyncratic visions of history as if they were undisputed fact.

...Onward to Victory is the last great illusion the Republican Party has left to sell in this country, even to its own followers. They can't sell fiscal responsibility, they can't sell "values," they can't sell competence, they can't sell small government, they can't even sell the economy. -- Matt Taibbi

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2008 12:45 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 03-08-2008 4:43 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4046
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 212 of 256 (459167)
03-04-2008 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
03-04-2008 12:45 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Imo, absent from written text, Christianity would never have become the most prominent religion of the world. The powers of darkness would have been such that evil would likely have overtaken humanity to the extent that humans would have become extinct a long time ago. The Industrial Revolution would have never come about due to the depravity of humankind.
Because we all know that all of the filthy, heathen, non-Christian societies of the world wiped themselves out long ago. Christians never committed genocide or forced conversions, nope - all of those wicked, evil Greeks and Romans, the various animal-worshpping cultures of Europe, Africa, and the Americas, all of them were vile and depraved examples of what humanity would have been like without the Holy Bible, and clearly by their example we would have killed each other into extinction years ago if not for the wonderful Christians.
I mean, it's not like the Greeks or Romans had set up an example of civilization we still measure ourselves against today until Christianity came into the picture. And the older civilizations from Africa (like Egypt, or Timbuktu (sp?)) widely regarded as centers of learning and cultural tolerance were obviously Christian, even though Christianity didn't appear until much later. The Native Americans were all obviously warring against each other in such a genocidal bloodbath that there are only a small number of them left - it's a good thing the Christians came and saved them from such a fate with the Holy Light of the Bible.
And Asia? I mean, Confuscianism, Buddhism, and the other Eastern religiouns obviously would have resulted in the extinction of mankind if it werent for the Christian missionaries.
And of course the Muslim cultures prior to the Crusades never came up with anything useful, like a system of numbers we still use today, or early telescopes, or advances in machinery, or large libraries and centers of learning. Those were all Christian things.
Yup, it's a good thing the Christians saved us from destroying ourselves and brought on a new age of peace, tolerance, education, and increasing knowledge about the natural world.
/sarcasm
If any of that had been true, then maybe you'd be right. As it is, you're either woefully ignorant, or in the most severe case of denial I've ever seen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2008 12:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2563 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 213 of 256 (459168)
03-04-2008 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
03-04-2008 12:45 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
buzsaw writes:
Whether you call it superstition, religion or whatever the point is that all cultures from the simplest to the most sophisticated have had it deeply rooted into the culture.
All cultures I've ever heard of have had some kind of religious belief, I agree with you there.
For the umpteenth time, my point is that all cultures which observe the wonders around them have had a religious bent due to the belief in a realm of intelligence above that of humanity.
On the "intelligence" bit, not all, by any means. Some religious beliefs have a belief in the soul, but not in Gods, or superior intelligences. (Animism/Buddhism etc)
They consider the powers of that realm such that such they have some control over the management of nature. Most have believed that a supreme god/creator presides over it all.
I'd substitute many for the word most, as polytheism is historically more common than monotheism (although it can include a "chief" creator).
The point about all of these religions is that they frequently contradict each other, often very strongly. If you follow the logic, that means that human beings are certainly capable of inventing false religions, and do so often. In fact, even if there is one true religion, inventing false ones must, logically, be the norm.
So, this capacity to invent and believe in religions, far from being evidence of the veracity of any one of the many Gods that have been and are believed in, is actually evidence of a marked tendency in our species to make up Gods (and other supernatural beings) and then believe in them.
A thoughtful religious person would not find reassurance in this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2008 12:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2293
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 214 of 256 (459180)
03-04-2008 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
03-04-2008 12:45 PM


Re: All Cultures Religious]
Whether you call it superstition, religion or whatever the point is that all cultures from the simplest to the most sophisticated have had it deeply rooted into the culture.
Great you've shown that all culture create stories to explain things that they fear and/or don't understand
For the umpteenth time, my point is that all cultures which observe the wonders around them have had a religious bent due to the belief in a realm of intelligence above that of humanity.
And for the umpteenth time my point is: so what? All cultures have thought that disease was caused by bad juju, that doesn't make it so, it doesn't even support the possibility that bad juju might be the cause of disease. Waht it shows is that people make shit up when confronted by stuff they don't understand.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 03-04-2008 12:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 215 of 256 (459205)
03-04-2008 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Rob
03-04-2008 1:30 AM


Re: To Text or Not to Text
While going for the juggular, the truth Himself tripped me flat!
I wish I could tell you that this was all a grand strategy on my part, but that would be false.
Well your honesty in this respect is unexpected, refreshing and to be commended. There seems little point pushing the point further.
Well despte my arguments earlier which were maladjusted, it would be just the opposite actually. They would have known better than anyone that there was a God, the further back toward the beginning we went.
Now this seems debateable at best. On what basis do you make this claim?
The further back in human history we go (no matter whether you accept evolutionary time scales or not) the more evidence there appears to be of gods representing aspects of nature (god of fire, god of the sea etc. etc.), polytheism in general and other such non-christian beliefs.
Are you really claiming that these cultures were more enlightened than the current followers of Christ such as yourself?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Rob, posted 03-04-2008 1:30 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Rob, posted 03-05-2008 12:33 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 216 of 256 (459212)
03-04-2008 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Admin
03-04-2008 2:21 AM


Re: Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
This seems a little harsh.
Rob had just (rather honestly I thought) admitted that there must have been a period in history when people existed but no religious texts were present.
As such he was acknowledging that the premise of the OP was in fact not hypothetical at all but in fact a necessarily true historical fact.
I know this is not the place to argue the point so I'll leave it at that come what may. But I did feel the need to make that point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Admin, posted 03-04-2008 2:21 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Admin, posted 03-04-2008 7:59 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 217 of 256 (459215)
03-04-2008 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Blue Jay
03-01-2008 9:56 PM


The OP was and is refuted
So, you would approach this problem by looking for design in the universe, Ray? If you see design, to you it’s evidence for a Creator?
Duh.
Can you follow the following "complex" logic?
Observation of organized complexity and design corresponds to the work of invisible Designer or Creator.
Actually, I think we already know that.
Well I am glad you agree. But I do realize that you assign a different causation to explain the observation of design. BUT THE POINT REMAINS - WE AGREE THAT THERE EXISTS AN OBSERVATION OF DESIGN SEEN IN NATURE.
Logically, the observation indicates Designer. Lets see how you explain design:
1. Aliens
In preface you said:
these have credible reasons behind them
You are a flaming kook also known as a evolutionist.
I will now take a break and commence rolling on the floor in laughter.
This is why we know evolution is Atheist fraud: they would rather postulate aliens (intelligence) to explain design rather than the intelligence of a Designer and the hundreds of millions of persons who testify to His existence.
Your next explanation of design:
2. Evolution
You mean a process that all scholars say exhibits no signs of intelligence produced design, isn't Designer a more logical and superior explanation? Of course my question is rhetorical.
You believe Dennett’s quote about “design” supports you and refutes the other hypotheses.
Dennett's quote did not place quote marks around the word design, you are misrepresenting. Dennett admits design to exist in the context that it was produced by Darwin's Dangerous Idea or natural selection. The whole POINT of me quoting Dennett was to establish that some scholars admit to the existence of design in nature with no negating adjectives or qualifiers. The whole POINT of making this point was to say that Creationism has a superior explanation for design (= Designer) rather than a process that exhibits no intelligence. I have been deliberately misrepresented on these simple points of fact and logic because you evolutionists cannot refute what was actually said and argued.
Funny how no Admin has appeared to verify these misrepresentations like they do against Randman over absolutely nothing in comparison.
Bluejay quoting Percy writes:
How would we know just by examining the world around us that there is a God?
But the even larger point remains: design exists in nature and based on this observation anyone has the logical right to conclude that the same was produced by invisible Designer. You can illogically assert that it was produced by aliens or non-intelligence if you want to.
The OP is refuted.
Ray

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Blue Jay, posted 03-01-2008 9:56 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Blue Jay, posted 03-04-2008 10:03 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 223 by Straggler, posted 03-06-2008 7:09 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 218 of 256 (459221)
03-04-2008 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Straggler
03-04-2008 6:55 PM


Re: Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
You're right. I tried to place that comment in the proper context last night, but I apparently just wasn't able to line things up.
Normally I'd prefer there be no replies to moderator notices, unless they're requested, but in this case I badly misinterpreted what he was saying.
Sorry, Rob, reversing your suspension now, but please make things easy on the moderation team in the future. There's only three moderators now.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2008 6:55 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Rob, posted 03-05-2008 12:37 AM Admin has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2784 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 219 of 256 (459228)
03-04-2008 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2008 7:33 PM


Re: The OP was and is refuted
Cold Foreign Object writes:
Bluejay writes:
Actually, I think we already know that.
Well I am glad you agree.
Ray, this is me telling you that everybody already knows what your thought process is. This is NOT me agreeing that you have a good point. You seriously need to up your reading comprehension abilities. Or, take the "me" filters off your glasses, or something.
CFO writes:
Logically, the observation indicates Designer. Lets see how you explain design:
Bluejay writes:
1. Aliens
In preface you said:
Bluejay writes:
these have credible reasons behind them
You are a flaming kook also known as a evolutionist.
This is an IDist lashing out at a soon-to-be PhD because he can't refute
his argument. God is an almighty, omnipotent, omniscient being who does magic with His voice: you're saying that the existence of mundane beings on another planet is unbelievable?
CFO writes:
I will now take a break and commence rolling on the floor in laughter.
Ray, you're mocking me for drawing your attention to somebody else's argument. You even attributed it to me. You've complained loudly and longly that Rahvin only lashes out and doesn't address your arguments, yet all you've done in response to my arguments is say "evolution is dumb" and "you're a kook."
CFO writes:
This is why we know evolution is Atheist fraud: they would rather postulate aliens (intelligence) to explain design rather than the intelligence of a Designer and the hundreds of millions of persons who testify to His existence.
I bet I could dredge up hundreds of millions of persons who could testify to the existence of aliens, if you'd like.
Following this message are all the noun definitions of the word "design" (taken from answers.com). After you have read them all and confirmed that some of them do not imply an intelligent designer, I will allow you the privilege of continuing dialogue with me. I have bolded the definitions in question, just to make it easier for you, though I doubt they'll get past your "me" filters.
Until then, you're a stubborn jackass who believes it his personal right to accuse everybody else of his own ignorance.
1. a) A drawing or sketch.
b) A graphic representation, especially a detailed plan for construction or manufacture.
2. The purposeful or inventive arrangement of parts or details: the aerodynamic design of an automobile
3. The art or practice of designing or making designs.
Something designed, especially a decorative or an artistic work.
4. An ornamental pattern.
5. A basic scheme or pattern that affects and controls function or development
6. A plan; a project.
7. A reasoned purpose; an intent
8. Deliberate intention
9. A secretive plot or scheme
Edited by Bluejay, : I lied: I don't have a PhD yet. This line was not meant to be in the final version of this post: it was just a personal gigle that made me feel better. I apologize to Ray and anyone else who may have been affected adversely by this.

There was a point to this [post], but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind. -modified from Life, the Universe and Everything, Douglas Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2008 7:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 220 of 256 (459246)
03-05-2008 12:33 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Straggler
03-04-2008 5:44 PM


Re: To Text or Not to Text
Straggler:
Are you really claiming that these cultures were more enlightened than the current followers of Christ such as yourself?
The only thing I am contending is that they were (in some ways) more enlightened than those who deny that there is a God altogether. And at the same time they were more foolish (in other ways). Afterall, if we are going to believe in a God at all, it better be the true God.
Many chose to worship nature gods rather than 'the God' of nature. What interests me, is how close to the truth they were. The connections between nature religions and Christianity is a revealing subject in itself. And it can be examined from more than one angle.
C.S. Lewis covers it brilliantly in his book 'Miracles'. Nature god's are the natural bent of man apart from higher reasoning.
What I am not claiming, is that I have all the answers.
I wish not to pursue this course any further. I gladly give all of you the rest of this thread...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Straggler, posted 03-04-2008 5:44 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5935 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 221 of 256 (459247)
03-05-2008 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Admin
03-04-2008 7:59 PM


Re: Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
No problem. I didn't phrase it very well and I came in stirring tension between you and I. But you are right, I was only trying to admit that I was the last one to concede the point that Straggler made so well.
Blinded by ambition I was...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Admin, posted 03-04-2008 7:59 PM Admin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-06-2008 7:24 PM Rob has not replied

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 5281 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 222 of 256 (459347)
03-06-2008 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by CTD
03-03-2008 7:37 AM


Re: Who couldn't see it?
CTD,
I already did provide the method.
No, you didn't supply a method of determining what is necessary.
Oh! I left out the last little, self-evident step. Obtain a ratio by dividing unsafe time by safe time.
& that tells us what, exactly?
How do I tell by following your "method" what ratio of blowouts is un-miraculous, & what is miraculous?
Mark

There are 10 kinds of people in this world; those that understand binary, & those that don't

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by CTD, posted 03-03-2008 7:37 AM CTD has not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 152 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 223 of 256 (459391)
03-06-2008 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Cold Foreign Object
03-04-2008 7:33 PM


Re: The OP was and is refuted
Logically, the observation indicates Designer. Lets see how you explain design:
1. Aliens
In preface you said:
these have credible reasons behind them
You are a flaming kook also known as a evolutionist.
I will now take a break and commence rolling on the floor in laughter.
Is this what counts for refutation?
You still have not supplied any reasoned response as to why any design* in nature is the work of an "invisible" designer in the form of a god rather than any other possible form of designer such as an advanced alien civilisation.
I don't believe that aliens are responsible for the world either but that does not mean I have refuted the possibility.
It just means I have stated my disbelief.
To refute the posibility you need to provide a reasoned argument not describe your hysterical reaction to the idea.
* Lets assume for the sake of this argument that there is design in nature

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-04-2008 7:33 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Rob, posted 03-16-2008 4:41 PM Straggler has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3134 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 224 of 256 (459394)
03-06-2008 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Rob
03-05-2008 12:37 AM


Re: Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
Blinded by ambition I was...
You are just a pathetic evolutionist ass kisser too ignorant to see that Percy is patronizing you. You have been outsmarted and put on a leash and have sacrificed any intelligent arguments that you might make to now be inferior, subject to evolutionist review and approval.
You ought to care about what other Designists think of you rather than fruit loops who deny that design implies Designer.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : spelling mistakes caused by anger accounts for both edits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Rob, posted 03-05-2008 12:37 AM Rob has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Admin, posted 03-06-2008 8:29 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 13082
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 225 of 256 (459401)
03-06-2008 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by Cold Foreign Object
03-06-2008 7:24 PM


Re: Rob Suspended for 24 Hours
Please keep discussion focused on the topic and not on other members. We'll see you tomorrow.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 03-06-2008 7:24 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024