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Author Topic:   Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 1 of 206 (124107)
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


This may be a wierd question, but something happend to me recently that kinda braught me to ask it.
I have two friends who are very VERY christian. In the past we have debated things not to unlike things go on here, but eventualy we had to agree to disagree. It was just gonna hurt our friendship if we kept going at it, I almost felt sorry for him too.
See, he wanted to "save" me cuz I was his friend.... oh boy, what a mess that was. I am not a christian, I am agnostic. I think all belief systems have equal weight and value.
whatever...
Anyway, these two friends are married, and I knew them both seperately before they tied the knot, indeed before they even met each other. The girl used to be a free thinker and not very religious at all, but when her and the boy got together she sort of took things up with his viewpoint.
Now she thinks the same way he does. More disturbing still, she refuses to have any sort of philosophical conversations at all anymore, she considers them too much "trouble".
And then it dawned on me!
Religion for her became the perfect excuse not to think criticaly. Im serious, it was very easy for her to justify her existance and go about day to day. She just simply refuses to think deeply about anything anymore since to her, her belife in god has made all such issues of no consequence.
I presented her with all the data on evolution vs. creation, she shruged and gave me a response amounting to "the way I think of things makes it easier for me. So I don't care if it's right or not."
This was nothing but astounding to me!
Shes gotten worsse I hate to say. The other day we saw a japanese film, where people were leaving offerings on graves. She commented on how stupid that belief was. It irked me to no end at how intolerant, and close minded that statement was. But it none the less brought me back to her previous reactions on things.
Life must be simpler to her this way.
So I thought I would bring this tale here, is religion an easy answer?
Is it a convenient methodology for simplifying your life? Is it a way to eliminate complex questions, and deep thought?

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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 206 (124109)
07-12-2004 8:31 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 3 of 206 (124111)
07-12-2004 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


I presented her with all the data on evolution vs. creation, she shruged and gave me a response amounting to "the way I think of things makes it easier for me. So I don't care if it's right or not."
What may appear as a passive answer, might be more of a serenity she has now achieved.
You see, maybe she thinks the reality of creation/evolution is infact independent of what she thinks about the issue. I myself have come to realize this, and find myself arguing both sides sometimes.
This doesn't mean she has quit thinking. And this is partly your own outlook aswell, because you obviously think that people of religion cannot think freely. That isn't the case. You can think without making a stink.
Even God didn't want to tell us about the "how" and Christ was only concerned with the "why" - yet we obviously believe he created all things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 8:05 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 9:44 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 4 of 206 (124118)
07-12-2004 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 8:46 PM


You see, maybe she thinks the reality of creation/evolution is infact independent of what she thinks about the issue. I myself have come to realize this, and find myself arguing both sides sometimes.
True, but in this particular case she used it as a conversation stopper. We were debating the issue, and she being a bible literalist, took me up on it. When I cornerd her on the facts, her reaction was to blow it off with this "It dosn't matter either way" kinda statement.
It just seemed like she was using it as an easy out.
This doesn't mean she has quit thinking. And this is partly your own outlook aswell, because you obviously think that people of religion cannot think freely. That isn't the case. You can think without making a stink.
Can they really?
Isn't one of the prime tenets of modern fundamentalist christianity that christians know the "truth". They got it figured out.
As a matter of fact its this knowledge of "truth" that makes them challange anything that is an afront to it.
Her, and indeed many fundamentalists, inability to even give a nod to someone elses religion as something meaningfull, is another example of this. A fundamentalist christian is PREVENTED from acknowledging someone elses belife system by the very Bible itself.
So can a christian truely think freely?
It seems rather hard what with the arogant thought that they have the "truth", as well as the impending guilt that they may be thinking "blasphemous thoughts".
How can you truely think freely when you blindly reject anything that challanges your belifes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 8:46 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:09 PM Yaro has replied
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 5 of 206 (124120)
07-12-2004 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
07-12-2004 9:44 PM


How can you truely think freely when you blindly reject anything that challanges your belifes.
Well, to be honest, nothing challenges my belief in Christ anyway.
Now something does obviously challenge the apologetics, yes - but I don't think anything can challenge the core of the belief. We are free to think, we just have a different way of thinking.
You see, man's ideas are small and his glory is as grass, here today gone tomorrow. So to me, all that the world can offer is that which I already know of and partake of. It's not that we reject it; It's that if we have a choice as to pick man or God, we choose the latter. This is hard to understand for the unbeliever.
So can a christian truely think freely?
Name something that would inhibit my thought process.
You see, just cos we don't think your way doesn't mean we can't think freely.
Though I admitt that I am a lil biased, and obviously favour the truth. Ahahaha.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 07-12-2004 09:11 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 9:44 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 10:52 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 6 of 206 (124128)
07-12-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


This is an interesting story. I experience the same situations with my friends except from the other perspective. In my case it is I who take the Bible literally and argue for Christianity and against evolution. I am always the one that enjoys the discussions and they tend to shy away from such discussions except for one agnostic friend of mine.
The thing I have learned through this is that such debates almost NEVER cause one person to accept the other's viewpoint. The whole debate is just to establish one person's authority in the matter over the other's. So it is usually wise to decline debating things like this especially between friends. In the end it all comes down to a decision not matter how persuasively one person or the other argues.
It may not be that your friend does not want to think freely, but maybe she just realizes the futility of arguing with you.
I presented her with all the data on evolution vs. creation, she shruged and gave me a response amounting to "the way I think of things makes it easier for me. So I don't care if it's right or not."
This was nothing but astounding to me!
There is a LOT of information floating around out there and a LOT of opinions and viewpoints about all sorts of different things and many are wrong or filled with half truths. Just look at politics. You have to choose what to trust.
I presented evidence against evolution to my friends who are biology majors, and they just got mad and didn't want to talk about it. They couldn't even imagine the earth not being 4.6 billion years old. How's that for not thinking freely.
Life must be simpler to her this way.
It IS sooo much simpler!!! But no, belief is not a ticket to intellectual laziness.
Is it a convenient methodology for simplifying your life? Is it a way to eliminate complex questions, and deep thought?
Noo!! A person's beliefs has nothing whatever to do with intellectual thinking. The thing is that intellectual thinking alone does not find God. A person chooses to believe in God. Belief in God can open up a whole new dimension of intellectual thinking, but those who do not believe cannot understand it.

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Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 7 of 206 (124134)
07-12-2004 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Yaro
07-12-2004 9:44 PM


Isn't one of the prime tenets of modern fundamentalist christianity that christians know the "truth". They got it figured out.
The humble Christian has found is finding and will continue to find truth.
The arrogant Christian may or may not have found truth, but even if he has it is useless to him.
As a matter of fact its this knowledge of "truth" that makes them challange anything that is an afront to it.
You've got it backwards. It is the knowledge of the truth that makes them stand up to any direct challenges against it. But the humble Christian does not run around on crusades trying to set everything straight and challenging every false truth.
Her, and indeed many fundamentalists, inability to even give a nod to someone elses religion as something meaningfull, is another example of this. A fundamentalist christian is PREVENTED from acknowledging someone elses belife system by the very Bible itself.
Well, yeah. Another person's religion may be psychologically meaningful, but not spiritually meaningful. If I know the truth with absolute certainty and something contradicts it, then naturally I'm going to discard it.
This is not intolerance. Intolerance is discarding a person for their beliefs. A true humble Christian views everyone with the same virtue love no matter what their beliefs.
It is funny that I have a friend who thinks he is tolerant of all beliefs, but really is intolerant of anyone who rigidly adheres to a belief.
It seems rather hard what with the arogant thought that they have the "truth", as well as the impending guilt that they may be thinking "blasphemous thoughts".
When you say "arrogant" thought, that implies that they are motivated by selfish reasons or consider themselves above authority. In fact most think they have the truth, because they have humbly sumitted to it with an unselfish desire to know God.
How can you truely think freely when you blindly reject anything that challanges your belifes.
How can you truly think freely when you choose to ignore a whole dimension of reality? When atheists present arguments on here, I try to consider it from their viewpoint. But having belief in God opens up a whole different way of thinking about things, which unbelievers cannot understand. To them it is foolishness. To me it makes perfect sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 9:44 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 11:21 PM Hangdawg13 has replied
 Message 34 by DBlevins, posted 07-15-2004 2:28 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 8 of 206 (124135)
07-12-2004 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by mike the wiz
07-12-2004 10:09 PM


Well, to be honest, nothing challenges my belief in Christ anyway.
What about evidence that contradicts christ? There is much of it. Is this a choice made consiously in your own mind?
i.e. "I choose that nothing, nomater what, will challenge my belife"
Isn't this automaticaly prejudice to any ideas that could pose fundamnetal problems to your belife. Or do you consiously choose to belive INSPITE of these potential problems?
(BTW: I don't want to sound harsh or disrespectfull at all mike, Im just honestly curious about this.)
Now something does obviously challenge the apologetics, yes - but I don't think anything can challenge the core of the belief. We are free to think, we just have a different way of thinking.
Well can something, or can't something challenge the core of the belife. Is there nothing that could potentialy harm its integrity?
You see, man's ideas are small and his glory is as grass, here today gone tomorrow. So to me, all that the world can offer is that which I already know of and partake of. It's not that we reject it; It's that if we have a choice as to pick man or God, we choose the latter. This is hard to understand for the unbeliever.
What I am understanding from this, is similar as to what I got from my friend, something like:
"Life is short, so far beliving in god has worked for me, so Im just gonna stick to it right or wrong."
I suppose that is a fair statement then. Perhapse it is not such a far fetched aproach to life, it frees you up from a whole buttload of wondering about stuff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by mike the wiz, posted 07-12-2004 10:09 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 9 of 206 (124140)
07-12-2004 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Yaro
07-12-2004 10:52 PM


What about evidence that contradicts christ? There is much of it.
Ahahaha.. I doubt it. You see, what could prove that he doesn't reside in heaven. You see Yarobabe, he is unfalsifiable, but then - he isn't a scientific Theory.
Isn't this automaticaly prejudice to any ideas that could pose fundamnetal problems to your belife.
Yes. But one has to understand the premise, which is that I am as stubborn as it gets, lol. So I mean, nothing could un-belief my belief. It's too late you see, once you know the truth.
Well can something, or can't something challenge the core of the belife. Is there nothing that could potentialy harm its integrity?
Yes, you could go back in time and get rid of the NT. Seriously though, I can't think of any way in which you could de-convert me. But then, I think it might also be hard to change your mind probably just s much as it would mine.
it frees you up from a whole buttload of wondering about stuff
Well I dunno...I still wonder, I occasionaly wonder whether or not God created or evolved us. I still wonder if there is any other life in this universe, and what other worlds would be like etc..
I guess thid might come down to a personality thing almost. I guess I am a "why" person, and you might be a "how". That might be the only difference. I am open to ideas, but if anything attempts to go against Christ then obviously I will think it is from the enemy. You see - hat's how I truly think.
As for being harsh, you are not being harsh - I deserve what I get probably.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 10:52 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 10 of 206 (124144)
07-12-2004 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hangdawg13
07-12-2004 10:47 PM


You've got it backwards. It is the knowledge of the truth that makes them stand up to any direct challenges against it. But the humble Christian does not run around on crusades trying to set everything straight and challenging every false truth.
But how can you profess to know the "truth" as in, the ultimate truth, when so many proffese to do the same? What makes it true and just not personal conviction to a strongly held OPINION.
Well, yeah. Another person's religion may be psychologically meaningful, but not spiritually meaningful. If I know the truth with absolute certainty and something contradicts it, then naturally I'm going to discard it.
See, thats just it. You have already made a glaring assumption that someone elses belife is mearly a psychological placebo, yet you cannot consider that perhapse your own belife may actually be psychollogical as well.
After all, there are many budhists in this world who feel just as strongly as the christians about their belifes. They claim miracles, personal anecdotes of spiritual fullfillment what habe you.
If other religions are experiencing similar phenomenon as those experienced by christians, why do christians, indeed any religion, so convinced that they are somehow in possesion of the right idea, and the others arent?
This is not intolerance. Intolerance is discarding a person for their beliefs. A true humble Christian views everyone with the same virtue love no matter what their beliefs.
It is funny that I have a friend who thinks he is tolerant of all beliefs, but really is intolerant of anyone who rigidly adheres to a belief.
It is not the adherance to a belife that is hard to fathom. Its the inability, to even for one moment, consider the other persons belife and think for a second "Hey, maybe there is something to the fact that he belives in his scripture just as strongly as I belive mine. Maybe.... there is something similar about this whole belife thing"
Instead its more like "poor heathen". I just cant even begin to explain how disturbing that sort of thing sounds to me.
When you say "arrogant" thought, that implies that they are motivated by selfish reasons or consider themselves above authority. In fact most think they have the truth, because they have humbly sumitted to it with an unselfish desire to know God.
Heh... it is arrogant when you essentialy discard the viability of 75% of the world populations social, ethical, theological, and philosophical contributions to humanity. Nay, "arrogant" when you pitty them for not beliving as you do.
In this case arrogance is not selfishness, just a belife that you got an edge on everyone else when you really dont. Arrogance is going into countries and trying to subvert a culture with your own, while feeling good about "saving" people. Arrogance is beliving that your gonna get the ultimate prize at the end of the rainbow just cuz you were lucky enugh to be born in the bible belt while millions upon millions are just gonna go burn in fire for ever and ever.
Its just too convenient a belife. Too self agrandizing, it strokes the ego so well to maintain that you are "humble" and yet are destined for the big payoff cuz you got the "truth". It makes it to easy to look at others as just folks who are either going to hell, or are in bad need of conversion. It makes it even easier to look at everything around us as nothing but "disposable". What does it matter if the world is falling appart "Im going to heven" and "it all gonna end anyway".
Im sorry if I sound down on christians. I really am not, I don't like many religions that profess this sort of atitude, personaly I find them dangerous belifes for the reasons above.
How can you truly think freely when you choose to ignore a whole dimension of reality?
How can you think freely when you can't tell the difference between an opinion and fact?
What dimension of reality am I ignoring? The irational belife in an invisible spirit man?
When atheists present arguments on here, I try to consider it from their viewpoint. But having belief in God opens up a whole different way of thinking about things, which unbelievers cannot understand. To them it is foolishness. To me it makes perfect sense.
So basicaly your belife in god prevents you from takeing someone elses viewpoint which is my point entirely. This is why it must be very difficult for the devoutly religious to acknowledge someone elses belifes as viable.
BTW, I havent allways been a non-beliver.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-12-2004 10:47 PM Hangdawg13 has replied

Replies to this message:
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 11 of 206 (124151)
07-12-2004 11:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


Religion for her became the perfect excuse not to think criticaly.
this is probably very true. it does make life a lot simpler, actually. a fair percentage of christian faiths openly speak against free thought and science, and proclaim that they have the only truth, and you have to take it from them. for this reason, several christian churches are even on cult-watch lists.
but there are christians who use their brains. it's not an easy out for all of us. how do you reconcile knowledge of geology, history, literature, etc, with an interpretation of the bible that says it's all perfect, written by god, and absolutely literal in every respect (except where later documents have changed it)? it takes thought, and it's hard to go back once you start down that path.
eventually, you analyze every aspect of faith. some reject it, some grow stronger, but both parties look on the people unwilling to know more as ignorant sheep.
but that is what church tells us to be, right? sheep. and ignorance is bliss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 8:05 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Hangdawg13
Member (Idle past 751 days)
Posts: 1189
From: Texas
Joined: 05-30-2004


Message 12 of 206 (124162)
07-13-2004 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Yaro
07-12-2004 11:21 PM


Thanks for your reply.
But how can you profess to know the "truth" as in, the ultimate truth, when so many proffese to do the same? What makes it true and just not personal conviction to a strongly held OPINION.
Honestly, I don't know. I mean I could go into all the reasons why I personally am convinced of the truth: fulfilled prophecy, the inerrant cohesive structure of the Bible, answered prayer, unspeakable peace and happiness, my friend's testimony of visions from God of angels and demons, the existence of demonism, the applicability of Bible doctrine to life, the power of the gospel, etc... and so forth... but they mean nothing to anyone else. First, you have to decide that God is real. The evidence is all around you if you want to see it. Then, you have to decide you want to know him. If you want to know him, he will make himself known to you. It is a decision not an action. If us knowing God depended on anything we did, it wouldn't be fair, because it would be based on our merits and efforts and not God's.
See, thats just it. You have already made a glaring assumption that someone elses belife is mearly a psychological placebo, yet you cannot consider that perhapse your own belife may actually be psychollogical as well.
I have considered it. I'm not perfect. There have been times I've seriously doubted my beliefs. But I always come back with an answered prayer and stronger faith than before. I recall the reasons I believe and God usually adds a new one on top.
After all, there are many budhists in this world who feel just as strongly as the christians about their belifes. They claim miracles, personal anecdotes of spiritual fullfillment what habe you.
I've seen (on tv granted) supernatural miracles performed by monks, which I attribute to demonism. If you've ever talked to a missionary to the heart of Africa or other places where demonism is rampant, you'd hear some REALLY freaky stories of what goes on there. I've talked to several MK's (missionary kids) at my school, and in these foreign tribes demonism is simply a way of life.
As far as the spiritual fulfillment they claim, this comes from the application of a viable moral code. As I have explained in other threads, moral truth is not monopolized by Christians, only spiritual truth.
If other religions are experiencing similar phenomenon as those experienced by christians,
Ever been to the slums of India? I know someone who just came back from there with a missionary. There was no fulfillment there. Only poverty and rituals to idols. Of course you can explain this away by saying their government is more oppressive and education is lacking, but it doesn't explain the painful hurting looks on their faces.
I guess if you really wanted to know for yourself, you'd have to engage (actually believe) in every single religion and decide which one is really true.
Instead its more like "poor heathen". I just cant even begin to explain how disturbing that sort of thing sounds to me.
I understand. I really do. You have a worldview without certainty of truth and without God. But you have to understand how a person's worldview changes in light of Bible doctrine and acceptance of "truth" (or what we believe is truth). You also have to understand the difference Christianity makes in people's lives.
just a belife that you got an edge on everyone else when you really dont.
Well, to specify, it is not I who have the edge, it is all God. But I see what you are saying. This is what my agnostic friend says.
Arrogance is beliving that your gonna get the ultimate prize at the end of the rainbow just cuz you were lucky enugh to be born in the bible belt while millions upon millions are just gonna go burn in fire for ever and ever.
I've thought of this too, but then I realized, luck has nothing to do with it.
Too self agrandizing, it strokes the ego so well to maintain that you are "humble" and yet are destined for the big payoff cuz you got the "truth".
If you think this, you have not understood Christianity. I'm sure many Christians go through a sort of sophomoric stage where they realize that they have the truth and then begin to think that they deserve the credit and approbation for it. But nothing is further from the truth.
It is an amazing thought to know how nothing you are in comparison with God and to know that you have not earned or deserved anything you have. Even more amazing is the thought that he paid the price for your sins (the ultimate act of humility) for you! The whole Christian mindset focuses on this. Once one realizes that God is everything, there is no room for arrogant self-agrandizment or ego stroking. It's all about God and not about us.
It makes it to easy to look at others as just folks who are either going to hell, or are in bad need of conversion.
That is not Christian viewpoint thinking. A Christian should see every person as loved by God and deserving of everything he can give them.
Im sorry if I sound down on christians.
Its ok. I'm used to it.
How can you think freely when you can't tell the difference between an opinion and fact?
Ha.. well a person's definition of a fact varies depending on their cyncism. As stated in another thread, the only way we "know" astronauts went to the moon is a metallic box we can still ping with a laser. In other words, were it not for that this person would not consider it a fact that we went to the moon. But anyways, I have my reasons to believe that what I believe is truth. And if I wasn't sure that it was truth, then I wouldn't believe in it in the first place.
What dimension of reality am I ignoring?
God.
The irational belife in an invisible spirit man?
Exactly how is it irrational? by invisible spirit man I assume you mean God? I think the existence of God certainly makes a ton of sense. But then this always comes back to the fact that if you believe it makes perfect sense and if you don't it doesn't. It is a choice. Do you want to know God or not?
So basicaly your belife in god prevents you from takeing someone elses viewpoint which is my point entirely.
no.. I said, "When atheists present arguments on here, I try to consider it from their viewpoint."
In fact the closest I've ever come to losing my faith was when arguing with atheists on here about answered prayer when a particular prayer request was not being answered. I contemplated life without God.
But yes, there comes a point (and hopefully I've reached that point) where a person's faith is so strong that nothing can touch it.
BTW, I havent allways been a non-beliver.
Most agnostics I've encountered are the same way. The only agnostic I am friends with was raised Catholic.
This message has been edited by Hangdawg13, 07-13-2004 12:38 AM

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Rand Al'Thor
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 206 (124186)
07-13-2004 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


Well, from my experience with family members and friends I think that one of the main reasons that religion is so popular is the sense of security that many gain from believing in god. When I have discussions with my Christian friends they often ask me how I can live without the feeling of happiness and comfort they get from believing in god. They seem to think that living without belief in god would be frightening and unpredictable.
I think that for many believers the idea that they might be wrong is scary to them because they have always had the feeling that they knew the truth and were comforted by that. Fear of having that certainty taken away is what I think drives many believers to ignore and avoid evidence that goes against their beliefs.

If ten thousand persons with Ph.D.'s say porn does not harm kids this means they are secret pedophiles and brazen liars.
-Willowtree

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 8:05 PM Yaro has not replied

  
berberry
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 206 (124190)
07-13-2004 5:45 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Hangdawg13
07-13-2004 1:37 AM


Of course, there are many Christians who are not fundementalist and who do think for themselves. Several of them participate on this forum (and even in this thread, I think). I used to go to church with many of them. I was Episcopalian, and I was always proud of the fact that the Episcopal church saw no conflict with the ToE and even funded many studies in science and higher criticism.
I'm not condemning anyone because I make this mistake myself regularly, but I think it's important to remember that not all Christian denominations discourage free thinking. When referring to those that do, it's much more accurate to use the word 'fundementalist' (or even 'evangelical', if it is specifically Christian fundementalism being discussed).
To the topic: yes, I think it's obvious that people join fundementalist churches because it saves them having to think. Why worry about you're own problems, or indeed the world's problems, when all you have to do is believe that things are the way they are because Jesus wants them this way? He's coming back, and all this stuff that's going on is just preparation. Read the bible; it's all there.
Oh, and don't forget to pray to the holy spirit before you start reading your bible, else you might stumble across something like 1 Samuel 15 and come away thinking God had ordered the genocide of an entire race of innocent people.
Try getting into an argument with an evangelical about most anything and you'll see how everything going on today can be traced back to the bible. Here's one that I've been hearing more frequently lately in relation to the Iraq war: if we pray to the holy spirit, he will show us how the Iraq war is all part of God's plan for Israel. God is using the US to put more pro-Israel governments in power in that region of the world. Israel's power will increase, she will retake the West Band and Golan Heights and a biblical prophesy will be thus fulfilled. It will then be time for Armageddon to start! This is something these people want to see happen, because they believe that they will receive a reward for all the praying and bible reading they've been doing and that they'll get to see the rest of us being roasted over an open flame (btw, does this remind anyone of what suicide bombers believe?).
Imagine the links to which some fundies must go in their commitment to avoid thinking in order that they might believe crap like this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Hangdawg13, posted 07-13-2004 1:37 AM Hangdawg13 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 206 (124195)
07-13-2004 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Yaro
07-12-2004 8:05 PM


To Yaro:
Interesting case you have there, Yaro, though far from uncommon.
In a case like this, it is generally advisable not to debate religion/evolution/genesis/etc. with friends. Faith is a touchy topic, and while some don't see what all the fuss is about, others devote their entire lives into it.
Personally, I see religion as a tool for life: Some people use it to get through life, others don't. Some people will tell you that your life is more fulfilled with faith; others will inform you that your life can be meaningful if you simply live the best life you can. In general, I have no qualms with one type of people or another.
The only time when religion irates me is when believers insist on their religion being the "only truth", and arrogantly define the world according to their faith, irrespective of what the rest of the world says or what evidence around them shows.
And also, consider this: you would be thanking all the christians in your friend's life if she ever became suicidal and faith in a hypothetical God became her only reason for living. I guess you would be less hostile towards her faith then, yes? ^_'
Patiently awaiting your reply.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Yaro, posted 07-12-2004 8:05 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Yaro, posted 07-15-2004 9:22 PM Sleeping Dragon has replied

  
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