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Author Topic:   Is christianity, or religion in general, a belief of convinience?
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 181 of 206 (128065)
07-27-2004 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by RingoKid
07-27-2004 11:02 AM


Re: funny how...
quote:
respect, prestige, rewards, recognition, to prove how insightful and strategically skillful you are on a message board on the internet...point proven???
...and to sharpen our debate skills, learn from others, etc. You conveniently left those out of your list.
quote:
Dude get over yourself...it's just a message board tucked away in a tiny corner of cyberspace not an international competition so your analogies mean little. But if it is a competition then you can be the financial, award winning, olympic chess champion of this message board and I'll be the arrogant child that needs to grow up just to make you feel better...OK, happy now ???
Look, considering that you care so little for this message board, perhaps you shouldn't be here.
If you think it's silly to be here doing what Sleeping Dragon and others are doing, then go away. Nobody is making you stay. Nobody is making you read posts, nobody is making you write posts.
quote:
You want answers ??? It appears you wouldn't know one if it crawled up your leg and bit you on the ass, let alone if I or anyone else gave you one and I doubt you'd admit to it anyway.You'd rather argue some inane point to where everyone just breezes past your posts for fear of nodding off midway. I too wish to learn but you ain't said jack worth noting mister, now why don't you run along and let the mods do the moderating... eh ???
Why do you care so much about a debate that you obviously consider stupid and beneath you?
You obviously care so much that you wish to just shut people up and stop them from doing something that you could completely ignore.
If you don't like this thread, then go away. Ignore it.
Stop trying to frame the discussion to be what you think it should be. Go start you own discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by RingoKid, posted 07-27-2004 11:02 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 206 (128070)
07-27-2004 12:10 PM


sorry Ned...
my point still stands, understanding christ is not rocket surgery and it annoys me to see people, churches, individuals etc...try and make it out to be
An indigenous person of virtue living how Christ did but in a remote jungle is just as likely to recieve any rewards in an afterlife irrespective of their knowledge of Christ as any of the most pious and righteous of his followers and can rightly be called a christian as in christlike because a rose by any other name still smells as sweet
cheers

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by MrHambre, posted 07-27-2004 1:00 PM RingoKid has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1393 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 183 of 206 (128082)
07-27-2004 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by RingoKid
07-27-2004 12:10 PM


RingoKid,
This just proves my lifelong suspicion that religion is the ultimate non-constructible set, a feel-good black box, something capable of being absolutely anything you want it to be. I don't know about "rocket surgery," maybe you could elaborate on that a little more.
For instance, in this post you're saying that even if someone has no knowledge of Christ, they can still be considered Christian. Is this the same Christ that said "No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)"? Could it be that, in your hurry to simplify it, you're making Christianity out to be something it's not?
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by RingoKid, posted 07-27-2004 12:10 PM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by lfen, posted 07-27-2004 4:33 PM MrHambre has not replied
 Message 185 by RingoKid, posted 07-27-2004 8:02 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
lfen
Member (Idle past 4677 days)
Posts: 2189
From: Oregon
Joined: 06-24-2004


Message 184 of 206 (128134)
07-27-2004 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by MrHambre
07-27-2004 1:00 PM


This just proves my lifelong suspicion that religion is the ultimate non-constructible set, a feel-good black box, something capable of being absolutely anything you want it to be.
MrHambre
Yes, your suspicion seems quite correct to me.
And then once you've constructed your black box, your story of divine revelation if you are persuasive enough you can get others to accept what you constructed and to call you a prophet.
Human psychology since at least early civilization has been adapted and conditioned to this sort of thinking though. Large groups of people required uniform discipline and the priest are more efficient in most cases than soldier though you need both. So the story gets created about how the authorities rule with the backing of God(s). The priest have power as Gods representatives. The appeal of these stories even in these times among people or college education is testimony to the enduring psychology of those early times.
Now there is no good evidence for this though there are stories, visions, hunchs, feelings but these religions when they work either appeal to peoples fears or better they feel really good when they believe these stories. These emotions are much more satisfying than to think about the evidence and really one can function well in most lines of endeveor though perhaps some sciences might not offer the greatest advancements if one holds say creationist views but otherwise an individual can believe whatever irrational nonsense they like and as long as they function in work and community there is little problem.
The leadership, the pastors, priests, popes etc of course want to keep their flocks so the believers are told this is the only true religion and its also the best. The believers feels they know the truth and are members of the best faith until for some reason they may begin to suspect something and begin to rationally question these stories.
And really I personally know really nice people who are Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. I just wish this kind of psychological comfort wasn't so necessary to so many, and that some of the leadership weren't so eager for customers that they have to knock everyone elses silly beliefs whilst being unable to see that there beliefs are no different in terms of being unsubstantiated made up fairy tales.
peace,
lfen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by MrHambre, posted 07-27-2004 1:00 PM MrHambre has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 206 (128200)
07-27-2004 8:02 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by MrHambre
07-27-2004 1:00 PM


Not at all Mr Hambre.
Christ taught a process and lived by example. The process was called "the way" a means to come to the father and before christians were called such they were simply known as followers of "the way". It was called "the way" by the essenes who cared for his needs in his early years and gave him the tools and knowledge to fulfil jewish prophecy..
The ME he is referring to is the personification of "the way" as in the process. The truth of it is reflected in how you live your life as he proved. It is essentially the same process that all faiths and people that live a virtuous life follow regardless of what they call it.
Knowing that, re-read the whole passage from which you quoted and you will understand Jesus true meaning of his seemingly self aggrandizing statement.
Most christian churches have essentially twisted that passage to mean a physical belief in Jesus the God as some gate keeper that needs to be worshipped and idolised according to rules they made up themselves and the only means by which you may come unto the father is through their own particular knowledge of christ.
That teaching is straight up false and provides a means for churches to set up rules and other processes that essentially take you away from the simple truths he espoused and lived.
Jesus came to destroy all those rules and he did. If you re read the passage as if you were Jesus and you practised the way. It becomes a personal affirmation that states you are yuor own messiah and none will pass unto the father except through you and "the way" you live your life.
I'm not going to post links or scripture as that is another problem the whole spiritual laziness thing of people wishing to be spoonfed without doing any thinking for themselves or studying...which is exactly what this thread is about
Forget the moral relativism of religions jockeying for bragging rights to God. Know yourself and the truth of it practise the golden rule and that will suffice. let God the creator take care of the rest.
Why should we accept the words of men telling us what their interpretation is of scripture when yours can be just as valid ???
You are absolutely right about formal religion being a non costructable set by an external agent. It is what you want it to be but the proof of the pudding is in the tasting. If it tastes bitter spit it out if it tastes bland add some seasoning soon you will arrive at your own recipe for spiritual nourishment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by MrHambre, posted 07-27-2004 1:00 PM MrHambre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 07-28-2004 3:11 AM RingoKid has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 186 of 206 (128283)
07-28-2004 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by RingoKid
07-27-2004 8:02 PM


Gnot so fast! Gnow Him...not Thyself!
Ringo writes:
The ME he is referring to is the personification of "the way" as in the process. The truth of it is reflected in how you live your life as he proved. It is essentially the same process that all faiths and people that live a virtuous life follow regardless of what they call it.
Au Contraire...Christianity by definition is not found in gnostic self actualization ideals. Christianity involves denying yourself and allowing Gods Spirit to fill and guide you. This mistake...assuming that self awareness and self actualization leads to godliness--is a blatant one in Orthodox belief. You can call it your personal religious philosophy if you choose, but the fact is that it is NOT Christianity. Jesus denied himself and so must we. It need be His Spirit...not our own self actualized one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by RingoKid, posted 07-27-2004 8:02 PM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by RingoKid, posted 07-28-2004 6:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 187 of 206 (128310)
07-28-2004 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Phat
07-28-2004 3:11 AM


Re: Gnot so fast! Gnow Him...not Thyself!
denying yourself and allowing God's spirit to guide you...
Isn't that what all the faiths teach..islam for instance means submission or surrender, buddhists talk about the 4 noble truths of suffering
both imply denying yourself to the will of the creator and define "the way" so in essence by your definition, they could be called christians
yes or no ???
Tell me about this spirit of God. Is it exclusive to christians ??? Do
christians have a monopoly on God or is it that just dogma to keep the faithful in check and the church in business ???

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Phat, posted 07-28-2004 3:11 AM Phat has not replied

  
Deimos Saturn
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 206 (128345)
07-28-2004 10:00 AM


Christianity, or other religions do not provide an easy way out.
If you were a creationist, imagine how unsure you would feel about existence, the blessings in your life and the lives of others, the human condition, the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people who don't get to eat every day, many of which are children, the countless numbers of people each day who die from easily preventable diseases, Terrorism, slavery, child labor, rape, pestulance, famine, trust me, christianity does not provide any comfort.
Now think about this, evolutionists use science as the easy way out, in plain english or whatever language, they just read something, see something, and accept it. They bring about all these seemingly unbreakable arguements about evolution, when really it doesn't provide a single solid grounds for a creationist to convert other than more faith that we shall overcome adversity as people never mind a common philosophical/religious/spiritual/metaphysical vision. Creationists come up to evolutionists with scripture and explainations for why we have DNA or the shapes of bird's beaks, we jump to our own system of failsafe ideas of how DNA came to be and why penguins can't fly.
Both sides are completely sure about what they believe as being true, until they start to really really critically think about it. There is a weakness to both creationism and evolutionism.

Nihilism is the answer, and it's not what you think...
http://www.hatem.com

Replies to this message:
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Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 189 of 206 (128348)
07-28-2004 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by RingoKid
07-27-2004 11:02 AM


To Ringokid:
Thank you for your reply.
Reply to your post:
You only took offense at my remark about proving how clever you are trying to be but if it wasn't true the why did it offend you and why bother responding about only that in the context of my post why not pull me up on what my point was and rip that to shreds ???
I...took offence? Funny how I didn't realise that I did - how did you come to that conclusion?
I replied to your posts because I believed that your "You are all being immature and I am so enlightened and I am so right because I say so!" attitude probably won't get you very far in this forum, and I would just like to point that out.
Why didn't I rip your points to shreds? Well, a couple of reasons really:
Firstly, your posts (176 and 177) did not include much evidence of what is commonly known as "logical reasoning" or "verifiable evidence". Whenever you present an assertion, you either backed it up with the infamous Triple Dots argument (...) or the Dreaded Exclamation of Psedo-importance (!). How do you rip apart an argument that is composed of pure assertions?
Secondly, your posts were not very coherent in nature. Your sentences do not link, your points have no obvious connections, and no one is any-wiser as to how your conclusions (if they are) came about. How do you shred something that is already in shreds?
But since you have openly invited me to "rip" your "points" to "shreds", I suppose it would be very impolite of me to refuse your offer. So off we go:
Christ is "THE WAY" etc...
I suppose you were referring to "The way, the truth and the life" in your triple dot, correct me if I'm wrong.
This is a pointless assertion, and to me, I would just like to beg the question: "So?"
any body who follows "THE WAY" regardless of belonging to a or any religious institutiton is a christian whether they know it or not and whether they want to accept it or not!!!
So where did you get this bright idea from? Theology textbooks? The Bible? The Koran? Or if my guess is correct, it is the conclusion made after many sleepless nights of creative MSU.
Want to enlighten us as to what you mean by "THE WAY" apart from the assertion that Christ is "THE WAY". If Christ is "THE WAY", is "THE WAY" Christ? How do you know?
you can't deny the way to a good life is to strive to follow "THE TRUTH" of "THE WAY" in which Jesus lived "THE LIFE" that leads to an awareness of the creator...
I'll gladly deny it.
What do you mean by a "good life"? "Good" by my standards or yours? You haven't exactly revealed what "THE TRUTH" entails, so how do we know what you mean by ""THE TRUTH" of "THE WAY"". You're being dangerously idiosyncratic and ambiguous here. How does this "TRUTH" and "WAY" then "lead to an awareness of the creator"? There appears to be no flow between any of your points.
learn the lesson of the golden rule !!!
Why? How does this relate to the rest of what you're saying? Are you just blurting out unrelated points for the fun of it?
the rest is you guys complicating things to prove how clever you are to each other and for what respect on a message board ???...grow up
And the purpose of your post is to educate us mere mortals in the commonly misconceived notion of "THE TRUTH" that you have, in your infinite wisdom, extracted out of thin air. I would certainly feel very mature if I were you.
live and learn, evolve or die
Is this as pointless as I thought it was? Care to explain this masterpiece and its connection to the rest of your post?
...and from what Ifen says in another thread "the way" is what Lao Tzu practised and taught also
Where did Ifen say that? Is Ifen's reasoning good? How are the two ideals (Lao Tzu vs. "THE WAY") identical?
Jesus in his missing 18 years between chastising the pharisees at 12yrs and beginning his ministry at 30yrs was taken to the homelands of the wise men present at his birth and taught...the way
Care to shed light on where you obtained this particular piece of historical fact from?
so when he claimed he was "the way", he was claiming the personification of it's practise in man as a means to know the creator
This ingenious interpretation is supported by such widely cited papers and experts in the field such as...?
******************************************************************************
Now that we have those shreds past us, perhaps we can get on with the rest of your post:
I mean really... don't you think you're over analyzing an extremely simple concept to prove yourself right, another person wrong and for what purpose ???
Because when someone else successfully proves that they are right and I am wrong, I learn something from it. For example, this happened between my exchanges with contracycle in post 146 on this thread. I was corrected; I thought about it; I cannot refute his point; I revised my thinking in light of superior reasoning; learning has taken place.
Is this an adequate "purpose"?
respect, prestige, rewards, recognition, to prove how insightful and strategically skillful you are on a message board on the internet...point proven???
You're attempting to argue that competition is pointless when there's no materialistic/ego-boosting reward from it? Does gaining of knowledge count?
But if it is a competition then you can be the financial, award winning, olympic chess champion of this message board and I'll be the arrogant child that needs to grow up just to make you feel better
You're willing to accept that competitions with materialistic rewards are meaningful, while you consider a debate on the internet that generates nothing but the gaining of knowledge as pointless. That's a really materialistic view, wouldn't you agree?
your prize can be another verbose post complete with boring quotes full of sound and fury signifying nothing
I don't know if I am reading this correctly, but from what you're saying, your post is my prize.
By the way, what "fury"?
wake up and smell the coffee sleeping dragon
I quit coffee four years ago.
My opinion is creative..yes, baseless...no, speculations...just like everyone elses just not as bombastic, supported by literature...already quoted from...
Oh? not baseless eh? Perhaps you would like to illustrate the basis for your views in the absence of Triple-dot arguments?
Tell ya what, try posting your real name, age and credentials cross reference all your sources and name them...I'm sure we can find somebody to peer review it for you and then get everyone else to do the same
How can you peer review philosophical arguments? I stated next to no evidence. All I presented were logical reasonings. Don't you know what peer-review does?
As for my sources, I don't usually have any. If my arguments seem illogical to you, you're welcome to challenge them.
You want answers ??? It appears you wouldn't know one if it crawled up your leg and bit you on the ass, let alone if I or anyone else gave you one and I doubt you'd admit to it anyway.
Read the first part of post 146, and then proceed to feel deeply embarassed. Unlike you, I admit my mistakes and I revise my thinking.
You'd rather argue some inane point to where everyone just breezes past your posts for fear of nodding off midway.
Next time I'll try to be more like you and produce only empty assertions with no evidence to back my claims up.
I won't embarass you with the rest.
Patiently awaiting your reply.
Editted to correct typo's
This message has been edited by Sleeping Dragon, 07-28-2004 09:20 AM

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by RingoKid, posted 07-27-2004 11:02 AM RingoKid has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Melchior, posted 07-28-2004 9:25 PM Sleeping Dragon has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 190 of 206 (128472)
07-28-2004 8:18 PM


*yawn*
Skipped past it for obvious reasons...
Sleeping Dragon is THE WINNER of the most intelligent person in this thread and has already claimed his prize...further competitors need not apply
"The Old Master, Lao Tzu (which is what Lao Tzu means) was so semantically modern in his understanding when he said the truth is nameless but in order to speak of it he had to call it something so he called it the Way, but the way that can be named is not the true way." - ifen
Grow up Sleeping Dragon, live and learn, evolve or die, do your own home work
schools out !!!

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 07-29-2004 4:55 AM RingoKid has not replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 191 of 206 (128488)
07-28-2004 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Sleeping Dragon
07-28-2004 10:12 AM


The Way according to Lao Tzu differs on many points from the Christan Way. I'm sort of confused by how RingoKid handles Lao Tzu's Way (Do you know exactly what it states?). There are similarities in how Lao Tzu describes his teachings, though, especially in how to relate to your own life when it comes to finding out how to make the best of it (ie, finding the Way).
RingoKid has that attitude towards Christianity, and there are a lot of examples of people with similar ideas.
This message has been edited by Melchior, 07-28-2004 09:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by Sleeping Dragon, posted 07-28-2004 10:12 AM Sleeping Dragon has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 192 of 206 (128516)
07-29-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Deimos Saturn
07-28-2004 10:00 AM


If you were a creationist, imagine how unsure you would feel about existence, the blessings in your life and the lives of others, the human condition, the HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of people who don't get to eat every day, many of which are children, the countless numbers of people each day who die from easily preventable diseases, Terrorism, slavery, child labor, rape, pestulance, famine, trust me, christianity does not provide any comfort.
Huh? So if you are a Christian these things bother you more?
You don't think we Agnostic/Athieists care also? You don't think we give to charities and try to help?
Well, I suppose christians would have to wory more. Considering that its their god which allowes all the horrors in this world to go on unabated.
Now think about this, evolutionists use science as the easy way out, in plain english or whatever language, they just read something, see something, and accept it.
Actually, this is what religion does. You read a 'holy' book and you accept its content as true. Science, by definition, relies hevely on facts gained thrugh rigorous inquriy and examination.
Science requires that you think about things thurghouly and objectively. There is nothing easy about this, nor is this a means for a moral "way out".
As a matter of fact, Science does not deal with morality at all.
They bring about all these seemingly unbreakable arguements about evolution, when really it doesn't provide a single solid grounds for a creationist to convert other than more faith that we shall overcome adversity as people never mind a common philosophical/religious/spiritual/metaphysical vision.
Religion certainly isn't offering a unifying vision for humanity to follow. Last time I heard, it was the cause of much of the same strife you mentiond above.
If anything Science, and an understanding about our world (i.e. Education) will lead humanity to a better, happier place.
Creationists come up to evolutionists with scripture and explainations for why we have DNA or the shapes of bird's beaks, we jump to our own system of failsafe ideas of how DNA came to be and why penguins can't fly.
Yes, Creationists come to evolutionists with a handful of "just so" stories, and half-baked, crackpot, psudo-science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Deimos Saturn, posted 07-28-2004 10:00 AM Deimos Saturn has not replied

  
Sleeping Dragon
Inactive Member


Message 193 of 206 (128547)
07-29-2004 4:55 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by RingoKid
07-28-2004 8:18 PM


To Ringokid:
Skipped past it for obvious reasons...
Obvious eh? Ignorance comes to mind.
"The Old Master, Lao Tzu (which is what Lao Tzu means) was so semantically modern in his understanding when he said the truth is nameless but in order to speak of it he had to call it something so he called it the Way, but the way that can be named is not the true way." - ifen
So by this reasoning, Christianity, which has a name ("Jesus" is THE WAY), is not the true way?
Grow up Sleeping Dragon, live and learn, evolve or die, do your own home work
Instead of chanting something that proves immaturity in an attempt to project immaturity onto others, perhaps you would like to back up some of your points to show that you're not an idiosyncratic, self-deluded fool?
Homework for the day: Show how the Taoist philosophy according to Ifen (quoted above) is any different to Buddist teachings of Zen.

"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by RingoKid, posted 07-28-2004 8:18 PM RingoKid has not replied

  
RingoKid
Inactive Member


Message 194 of 206 (128552)
07-29-2004 5:26 AM


apologies to Yaro for SD going off topic
I would suggest he do his own homework stating his parallels of Lao Tzu and Zen buddhism as a point of discussion and start a new thread...
Once again Christianity is not the name Jesus gave for his teachings he was a follower of "the way" and I suspect that he didn't wish to give it a name...
Lao Tzu in referring to the way that cannot be named could be paraphrasing the adage that "those that know don't tell and those that tell don't know" and that the reason it cannot be named is because "the way" facilitates a personal relationship with the creator that defies adequate expression in linguistic terms.
The only thing obvious about SD's recent posts is his inability to grasp it...
give it a rest SD. I said you were the most intelligent winner here.
What more do you want ???

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Phat, posted 07-29-2004 7:36 AM RingoKid has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 195 of 206 (128562)
07-29-2004 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by RingoKid
07-29-2004 5:26 AM


Exclusiveness of spirit...Christ as ONLY Way?
RingoKid writes:
Isn't that what all the faiths teach..islam for instance means submission or surrender, buddhists talk about the 4 noble truths of suffering
If you are implying that all religions are essentially the same, you had better explain the concrete facts in order to convince any serious student of comparative religion. First, is the concept and definition of the "Creator" similar in the different religions? Is the relationship between God and man also defined similar? Finally, is man thought of as possessing similar character traits and given similar expectations in each faith? We are definitely NOT in agreement along the lines of what some would call "cafeteria theology," whereupon one merely selects the particularly favorable traits of each faith that one likes and brings to the table a relativistic belief.
Tell me about this spirit of God. Is it exclusive to christians ??? Do christians have a monopoly on God or is it that just dogma to keep the faithful in check and the church in business ???
It is a serious thing to judge the heart of another truth seeker, and so, in fairness I will not proclaim Christians as the right way so casually. Of course the Church as a manmade institution has been quite corrupt throughout History. By definition, however, the Church as a body of believers imparted with a Spirit of Truth has been quite influential and effective throughout History. I believe that there is One Spirit and One Truth. I suppose that if we were to literally say that Christ is the ONLY way to God, (which He Himself said) than we could say that the spirit is exclusive to followers of Christ. I will not deny this truth concerning Christ as the only way,yet I will say that it all is a bit more complex. Take the Dalai Lama, for example. Some would say that he is a truly holy man. If the Dalai were to die, and IF what I said concerning Christs unique claim to Divinity is also true, the Dalai will have a direct opportunity to encounter Christ as he dies. THIS would be the test for the Dalai. Would this great religious man of another faith recognize the unique character of God within Christ, or would the two go seperate paths? I believe that the choice and the responsibility would be on the Dalai, and the power and authority of God would be through Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by RingoKid, posted 07-29-2004 5:26 AM RingoKid has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by RingoKid, posted 07-29-2004 9:06 AM Phat has not replied
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