Morality and God

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If morality exists objectively, I would think it wouldn't "derive" from anything. Objective things simply are as they are, not subject to the properties of some other entity.

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That's not true if the entity is an omnipotent being who created
everything to be the way it is. Perhaps my wording was
incorrect/unclear on that.All I was trying to do was state the premise as I understand it.
That is, that objective morality exists because the creator
made it so.

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The important phrase being "could be." Yes, anything could be considered right, but in practice it isn't, so that fact is rather irrelevant.

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No, it doesn't make it irrelevant. If, in principle, anything
can be considered moral, then morality cannot be objective.If even one person considers an act to be acceptable that others
do not then there is no objective morality.The rest of your post actually agrees with my position, that is
all morality is purely subjective.

Here's the thing.Are any of us perfect? NO.Should we be trying to get better? YesGod has not set up the law to condemn but to show the path to heaven(to show the need for Jesus Christs sacrifice.)
God wants your heart right with him, he doesn't care how you live. He wants your heart close to him and when your heart is close to him, then you will read the Word and be subject to a transformation and renewing of your mind. In effect the transforming and renewing of your mind should lead to a higher moral code and a closer relationship with God.And by the way loves you whether you want him to or not.god bless[This message has been edited by Smitty500, 02-03-2004]

Ah, so it is works that get you into heaven. I've been wondering about that.

Q: Are we perfect?A: Depends entirely on your criterion for perfection.Example:Some of us are perfect for surviving long enough to breed.
Many of us are perfect for drinking lots of alchohol and then
falling over a lot.Q: Should we be trying to get better?A: In whose eyes?Example:Mr X's father is a mobster, and is very disappointed in Mr X
because, at the age of 37 he has never comitted a major
criminal offense, and has consitently failed to 'rub out'
people who cross him.To get better, in Mr X snr's eyes, Mr X must knock over a
bank or armoured car, and wack five of his enemies.

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God has not set up the law to condemn but to show the path to heaven(to show the need for Jesus Christs sacrifice.)
God wants your heart right with him, he doesn't care how you live. He wants your heart close to him and when your heart is close to him, then you will read the Word and be subject to a transformation and renewing of your mind. In effect the transforming and renewing of your mind should lead to a higher moral code and a closer relationship with God.

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You cannot actually know any of this.

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And by the way loves you whether you want him to or not.

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I got nothing against God so long as he's got nothing
against me

Nothing is perfect
in the space where nothing exists
will one find perfection
the perfect nothingseekaccept nothing as fact
question everything
determine yor own truth
defineyour own realityGod is a nihilist, devoid of morals who destroyed a perfect nothing to create an imperfect universe...Nature is aught but the will of god andthere is nothing outside of nature

When I said that I was refering to the fact that the no human can keep the law to perfection. Assuming this is true(I believe it is) and to be with God you have to keep the Law, then one realizes you have to have something to make up for that lack of keeping the law. This "coverer of the gap" so to speak is the grace of Jesus ChristSorry about that, it was a very vague and misleading statement.

It doesn't matter what my criterion is, it matters what God's criterion is. Psalms 1:6 "For teh Lord watches over the way of the righteous, but the way of the wicked will perish."When I referred to trying to get better it obviously refers to God's eyes. That is a lame attempt at diverting something. Do you honestly think that one should not attempt to get better at something? Come on. Sure you don't have to but it definately leads to a healthier self-esteem.John 3:15-17
that everyone who belives in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world but to save the world though him."G2g right now but will explain the rest in a bit.

The fact that people have moral feelings is evidence that God exists.

Phatboy writes:

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The fact that people have moral feelings is evidence that God exists.

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But the mere existence of atheists proves this claim wrong.Or are you claiming that atheists don't have morals?

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Welcome back Rrhain, nice to see you again.AdminBrian.

Is it possible that atheists have morals, but they mistakenly attribute them to their own ingenuity rather than to God's divine inspiration or design?On the other hand... is the fact that some people don't have morals evidence that God doesn't exist?

AdminBrian,Joys of life. New job so my life has been mostly work, sleep, work, sleep of late.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

crashfrog responds to me:

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Or are you claiming that atheists don't have morals?

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Is it possible that atheists have morals, but they mistakenly attribute them to their own ingenuity rather than to God's divine inspiration or design?

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Of course, but what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. If people with god having morals is proof of their god, then people without god having morals is proof that there is no god.The problem, as I'm sure you're aware, is the problem of unstated assumptions. It is merely asserted that morality has to come from god without any justification as to why this is so. And you bring up yet another example showing why the assumption fails:

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is the fact that some people don't have morals evidence that God doesn't exist?

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There are serious problems with the claim that morality and god go together.

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Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Well, if morality is a set of values, I as a Christian see that society has basic values which are changing from year to year. The fundamentalist conservatives claim that we are literally turning into Sodom and Gommorah, and that morality is sliding down a slippery slope. My problem with them is that they propose a virtual legislation of morality. We do not need any absolutist Monarchs in this day and age! I personally believe that an atheist is infused with the same basic internal wiring and conscience as the rest of us...self professed believers, skeptics, scientists, and strippers. I feel in my heart that I was infused with a deeper awareness of who God was after I "got saved". This reality in and of itself did not make me a better person. Thus, by the same token, Christians have no better morality than anyone else.
To confirm this, look at the Divorce statistics. The church mirrors the culture. While I believe that a remnant...a small number within the Church are imparted with Gods unchanging wisdom, I do not elevate these people to a higher place. That is not my job.

So YOUR criterion for perfection is 'That which
God would consider perfection.'And your answer to the question is 'Morality is that which
God considers to be good/bad'.i.e. objective morality exists.So regardless of what WE deem to be morally acceptable,
there is an overriding set of moral codes.