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Author Topic:   Why is Faith so Important to God?
Taz
Member (Idle past 3380 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 16 of 88 (431328)
10-30-2007 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by jar
10-30-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
jar writes:
No, not at all. That is from the Thomas story, and Jesus went on to actually provide the evidence.
Forgive me, but Jesus has never appeared to me and asked me to put my finger through the nail wounds and my arm into his spear wound.
Jesus told Thomas that he believed after he'd seen. Jesus went on to say "blessed are those who have not seen but believe..." I don't know how you could interpret this to mean anything but faith over evidence.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 17 of 88 (431329)
10-30-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
10-30-2007 2:21 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
Even under that interpretation, I would say that Our Faith is important to GOD in the same way that Our Intelligence or Our Questioning Spirit or Our Love of Discovery or Our Desire to Know More is to GOD. Faith is another of the tools GOD has given us.
If by that you mean it is important to GOD that we believe in Her or such, then I think it is just silly.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 10-30-2007 2:21 PM Brian has replied

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iano
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 18 of 88 (431332)
10-30-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-29-2007 9:57 PM


iceage writes:
Why is the quality of faith or belief in the unseeable so supremely important to God?
First things first. Hebrews 11:1 defines faith in two ways
- faith, the substance of things hoped for
- faith, the evidence of things not seen
From the second definition we can see that belief in an unseeable (with the eyes) God does not mean a blind belief or a belief in the face of no evidence. Rather, faith is defined as being evidence of a class that allows belief in, for example, the existance of God.
iceage writes:
In Christianity, faith in God is the principle doctrine - all the rest are details. If one believes the NT, faith is the central deciding factor as to where an individual will allegedly spend eternity; eternal bliss or eternal torment. This message is repeated over and over in the NT.
Why is the quality of faith or belief in the unseeable so supremely important to God?
The reason why "faith in God" would be considered important is that "faith in God" is the means supplied by God to man whereby a man is saved. Seeing as there is no other means whereby a man can be saved it seems sensible that the only way be emphasised. Note that "faith in God" is given as a gift from God to man - God doesn't expect a man to believe without his supplying the means whereby the man can do so. God supplies the evidence > man believes.
Material evidence does wonders for unifying a faith. For example, most have faith in gravity and that the sun will rise tomorrow.
Material evidence is great when you are considering material things. Immaterial (or spiritual) evidence is great when you are considering immaterial things

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 10-29-2007 9:57 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 10-30-2007 2:52 PM iano has replied
 Message 27 by pelican, posted 10-30-2007 8:11 PM iano has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 5048 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 19 of 88 (431333)
10-30-2007 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
10-30-2007 2:27 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
Catch you later, I'm off out for a pool match and perhaps a beer.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6003 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 20 of 88 (431335)
10-30-2007 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Brian
10-30-2007 2:21 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
Brian writes:
I interpreted this as 'why is faith (our faith) so important to God', I didnt think for a second it was regrading God havinf faith in anything.
Yes you are correct, why does god value our faith in his unseen existence as the most supreme quality.
I could go on and on with biblical passages on how faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation but this one more general and should suffice...
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him." (Hebrews 11:6)
Edited by iceage, : reread Brian reply and responded appropriately

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6003 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 21 of 88 (431337)
10-30-2007 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
10-30-2007 2:32 PM


Faith is Not Evidence
Iano writes:
Rather, faith is defined as being evidence of a class that allows belief in, for example, the existance of God.
"faith" is not evidence of existence of God. The Heavens Gate practitioners had faith so do suicide bombers. The Heavens Gate faith does not prove there is a space ship behind a comet.
Iano writes:
The reason why "faith in God" would be considered important is that "faith in God" is the means supplied by God to man whereby a man is saved.
That is the question! Why would God make faith in the unseeable as a means to be "saved". It is a foundational question that is so often implied but never to my knowledge defended.
As i pointed out such faith or belief in the imperceivable is a requirement and necessary to promote a false belief. Is it a coincidence that the god of the bible requires such a faith or a clue.
Iano writes:
God supplies the evidence > man believes.
And the evidence is..... Please don't say faith as that would be most circular.
Edited by iceage, : Added subtitle
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 2:32 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 22 of 88 (431344)
10-30-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by iceage
10-30-2007 2:37 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
I could go on and on with biblical passages on how faith in Jesus is the only way to salvation but this one more general and should suffice...
One of the great things about the Bible is that there is enough material there to support most any position.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6003 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 23 of 88 (431367)
10-30-2007 7:07 PM


While I wait here for a Christian response to this question (btw thanks jar for your input) I just noticed this passage from Hebrews:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6)
Which correlates quite well with...
"And without faith it is impossible to propagate a false god"
Any Christian want to defend this and tell me where I am wrong...

Replies to this message:
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 Message 73 by riVeRraT, posted 12-03-2007 7:50 AM iceage has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 24 of 88 (431374)
10-30-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iceage
10-30-2007 1:34 PM


Re: Why is faith so supremely important to God
I am sorry, I should have said unseen energies e.g solar, wind, magnetism etc. I wasn't referring to supernatural energies as in crystals. I believe faith in the supernatural is blind faith (fickle)although many would disagree.
However, I believe your point is that, hypothetically, if there is a god, why would faith be so important to him\her?
It absolutely doesn't make sense, does it?

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 25 of 88 (431375)
10-30-2007 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iceage
10-30-2007 7:07 PM


On Hebrews
While I wait here for a Christian response to this question (btw thanks jar for your input) I just noticed this passage from Hebrews:
"And without faith it is impossible to please God" (Hebrews 11:6)
Which correlates quite well with...
"And without faith it is impossible to propagate a false god"
Any Christian want to defend this and tell me where I am wrong...
Not saying your wrong.
Hebrews is one of the long epistles, 13 chapters, and what you have is only a small quotemine and not even all of Hebrews 11:6.
The full verse is:
6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
If you go on reading Hebrews it lists a long line of examples. and one thing in each is that it is an example of humans doing something.
Again, as throughout the Bible, Faith is a human tool.
But to do something for God, the author is saying that you must know God; in his idiom, have faith that God exists.
I happen to think that is wrong and of course, can show Bible verses that support my position (ain't the Bible great?) but the final test has to be reason.
Would the GOD that creates the universe really need anything from us?
Is it reasonable to say that to believe in God, something that is after all outside normal experience, that Faith is needed, but needed by man, not God?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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iano
Member (Idle past 2029 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 26 of 88 (431376)
10-30-2007 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by iceage
10-30-2007 2:52 PM


Re: Faith is Not Evidence
"faith" is not evidence of existence of God. The Heavens Gate practitioners had faith so do suicide bombers. The Heavens Gate faith does not prove there is a space ship behind a comet.
God-supplied/biblical faith does various things. At root, God-supplied/biblical faith engenders belief and trust in God - long after it has fueled a belief in Gods existance. You shouldn't suppose the word "faith" to be some kind of universal currency.
That is the question! Why would God make faith in the unseeable as a means to be "saved". It is a foundational question that is so often implied but never to my knowledge defended.
At root the means involves man surrendering his independance from God...to God. That is the core. Man was not created with the intention that he operate independantly from God. The picture given all over the Bible is man intended as son - ever dependant upon and subject to the household of his father. God as perpetual father with son never leaving home. The story of the prodigal son is a good example. The son illegitimately demanding independance, leaving home, suffering the consequences, being convinced of his error by his circumstances, returning home, welcomed back to where he belongs by the father, happy ever after...
"Faith in God" is something that man has to be brought to. God attempts to work the circumstances so that man will turn to God and rely finally (like the prodigal son) not upon himself but upon his fathers provision and steerage. I wouldn't go asking questions about how it is you could come to have faith in a father you don't believe exists: you'd be a bit premature in the asking. You'd be on the outward journey of the prodigal son - inheritance in hand (this life, your gifts, career, marriage, health, wealth and happiness) and in no need of the father. It's only when circumstances conspire to stick your snout into the trough alongside the pigs that the thought "this can't be right" begins to cross your mind.
And the evidence is..... Please don't say faith as that would be most circular.
The evidence is? God shows up. I could go about describing him for you but it would miss the point. Suffice to say that words cannot describe him*
*if you insist on knowing then the Bible is as good a place as any for attempts at describing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by iceage, posted 10-30-2007 2:52 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 5074 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 27 of 88 (431383)
10-30-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by iano
10-30-2007 2:32 PM


There are so many definitions of faith and they cannot all be correct. I personally don't view faith in a biblical sense as I do not know the truth of the bible. I know only the interpretations.
To me faith has to have a certain amount of viable proof which can be within the human experience. It does not nessessarily have to be physical evidence. E.G I have 100% faith that electricity exists but I have never seen it.
My question is, does faith make something true or does truth manifest faith?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by iano, posted 10-30-2007 8:45 PM pelican has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 88 (431386)
10-30-2007 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
10-29-2007 10:10 PM


Faith is important to God
jar writes:
Faith is only for man, it is of no importance to God.
Hebrews 11:6: "......without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing unto him; for he that comes to God must believe that he is and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him."

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 10-29-2007 10:10 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member
Posts: 34065
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 29 of 88 (431390)
10-30-2007 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
10-30-2007 8:14 PM


Re: Faith is important to God
More out of context quotemining. Go on and read all of Hebrews. but in particular all of the examples that follow 11:6.
See Message 25.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 88 (431391)
10-30-2007 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-29-2007 9:57 PM


iceage writes:
Why is the quality of faith or belief in the unseeable so supremely important to God?
A false god or meme-complex requires such blind faith, but the real God?
False gods/religions have no evidence for credibility so as to generate any real measure of faith. On the other hand the Bible is rife with faith generating evidence for the existence of God which include the following:
1. Fulfilled prophecy. For example, Jesus cited OT fulfilled prophecy to show that he was indeed the messiah of which the prophets had spoken. Isaiah 53 is a good example of an ancient prophecy depicting the suffering messiah. There are a number of equally significant prophecies in Isaiah and Psalms depicting events relative to the crucifixion etc.
Scores of fulfilled prophecies or prophecies beginning to begin to come to pass for the latter days can also be cited. Not so with other religions.
2. Cultural and social issues support the veracity of the Biblical principles.
3. Personal experience evidenced when one draws near to the Biblical god, Jehovah become more prevalent the more one draws near to and adhere's to the responsibilities of the Christian life.
4. Answers to prayer which we who have experienced the spiritual birth via the Holy Spirit work to strengthen our faith. This, of course, means little or nothing to those outside of the faith or who have failed to consecrate their lives to Jesus as both lord/master and savior.
5. Archeology has worked to strengthen my faith. The Exodus video and the Exodus Case book by Dr. Lenart Moller, Swedish scientist who photographed the chariot debris at Aqaba along with the corroborating stuff in the region is a good example of this.
I've said the above to say this: Faith is so important to God that he continually provides evidence so as to provide a basis for our faith so that it is not blind. He delights in all of this.
God was angry with the Jews who had all the evidence for strengthening their faith but chose rather to disobey his commandments. Had they by faith trusted in him alone instead of whoring after other gods, he would have been well pleased with them and blessed them instead of bringing judgement upon them.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by iceage, posted 10-29-2007 9:57 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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