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Author Topic:   Why is Faith so Important to God?
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4275 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 46 of 88 (431680)
11-01-2007 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by jar
10-30-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Faith is not important to God
One of the great things about the Bible is that there is enough material there to support most any position.
also to unsupport any position.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5071 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 47 of 88 (431743)
11-01-2007 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
11-01-2007 1:15 PM


Re: Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer. Cause/Consequence
iano: "I have faith that my brakes will stop the car"
"I believe that my brakes will stop the car"
I don't think I would use either of them to illustrate faith or belief because I KNOW my brakes will stop the car. That is 100% faith in my brakes. (Maybe you need a new mechanic? Only joking.) Faith and belief in the above statements are dependent on a product and would only entail my knowledge and not faith or belief.
The way I see faith in my life is, it represents how much truth or validity I give to something. It's how much confidence I have based on as much truth as I can get. Now I think confidence in something and faith in something are different things but at the moment, I don't see it.
Is faith a feeling or a knowing?
[To my way of reckoning the only reason I 100% believe anything, spiritual or no, is that the evidence is evidence enough. When the evidence is less than enough then my belief is less than certain. It can be a suspicion that..., a feeling that..., a weak belief that... a hope that...etc.]
I'm sure this is how I work too but isn't this showing that faith and evidence are two different things? Doesn't faith depend on evidence?

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iano
Member (Idle past 2026 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 48 of 88 (431756)
11-01-2007 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by pelican
11-01-2007 8:44 PM


Re: Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer. Cause/Consequence
"I have faith that my brakes will stop the car"
"I believe that my brakes will stop the car
You've just gotten your car back from the garage where the brakes have been serviced. You don't know that they will stop you yet. Or some such situation This is how a dictionary compares faith and belief
Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Faith almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof .
The one is evidence based the other not. In the dictionary
I'm sure this is how I work too but isn't this showing that faith and evidence are two different things? Doesn't faith depend on evidence?
Nope. Belief in Gods existance occurs due to the evidence for God existance - just like the dictionary says belief happens. Belief is evidence based. The dictionary parts company with the Bible when it defines faith however. The dictionary has faith and belief as two sides of the certainty coin - the one certainty (belief) involving evidence, the other certainty (faith) involving no evidence. That kind of faith is commonly called blind faith. Amusingly faith in God is given as the example
The biblical definition of faith at Hebrews 11:1 is thus. "Faith...the evidence of things not seen (heard, tasted, smelled, touched)". Faith is evidence of the class which deals with the non-empirical. The immaterial. The spiritual. The supernatural. Belief in God comes through having evidence. This class of evidence. By having faith.
I have faith in God. That is to say: evidence of God. Not a trace of doubt in my mind..
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

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 Message 47 by pelican, posted 11-01-2007 8:44 PM pelican has replied

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5071 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 49 of 88 (431767)
11-01-2007 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by iano
11-01-2007 9:34 PM


Re: Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer. Cause/Consequence
iano [Belief: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence
Faith: firm belief in something for which there is no proof. Faith almost always implies certitude even where there is no evidence or proof.]
Ah now I think I'm getting somewhere. I look at 'belief' as a noun\object, whereas you are coming from belief being a verb\action. 'A belief' versus 'to believe'.
The definition of faith is very vague. As it says it only 'implies', it doesn't make it true.
[I have faith in God. That is to say: evidence of God. Not a trace of doubt in my mind.] You must be a partridge family fan?
iano, can you explain how you came to have faith in god without doubt?

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 50 of 88 (431776)
11-02-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by iano
11-01-2007 2:16 PM


Re: Sheer Poetry
iano writes:
Perhaps I'm biting off more than you can chew . I'll try and slow it down.
"God-supplied Faith engenders belief and trust in God - long after it fueled a belief in Gods existance"...
Iano please slow down reread your statement and you might spot the redundancy. Can you explain the difference between "engenders belief" in God and "fueled a belief in God"? Or does belief have two different biblical definitions here?
Iano writes:
I'll assume you are aware that I am using a biblical definition of faith here - not a dictionary definition.
You mean your "faith == evidence". Search a Biblical dictionary and provide the reference. I looked it up in both Holman's and Easton's.
Iano writes:
Meet someone and you know they exist. You have evidence that they do. But you don't know anything about them. Can you rely on them? Trust them? After a while you might come to rely on them, to trust them. You have come into possession of evidence for this due to knowing them for a while. By seeing how they operate
That is a perfectly nice English dictionary definition...
quote:
Faith n 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
iceage writes:
Unless you can differentiate you action of "faith" in some tangible way, then it is common ("universal currency") with others action of "faith".
Iano writes:
See above. Faith is defined in a way other than the universal way.
Oh creating your cultist lingo does not differentiate your faith in any way - in fact creating your lingo makes it all the more the same.
iceage writes:
And I have some evidence to back up this claim; namely the thousands of variations of faiths in the unseeable - and I am just referring to those within the Christian realm. A Mormon's faith in God is significantly different than yours; as is the JW as is the Christian Identity brotherhood as is the Davidian's as is the Phelpian's as is the Catholic's.
iano writes:
If another 10,000 types of faith were added tomorrow it wouldn't alter the truth of one true one - if one true one existed. The objection is fallacious. Baby with bathwater (if the baby exists)
The fallacy is that you evidently believe you have the "one true" faith yet you have absolutely nothing to demonstrate that.
iceage writes:
And this is simultaneously evidence against your substantial claim of God-supplied faith. If there is such a thing as God-supplied faith one would predict some uniform expression of faith world wide.
iano writes:
One would expect some expression of uniformity amongst those supplied of God. The trouble is determining who those are. Only then can you comment on uniformity. No true Scotsman territory I'm afraid. This objection is too fallacious.
Your claim is that there is such a thing as "God-supplied faith". So does God selectively administer this "God-supplied faith" to predominately Christian cultures? and Christian households?
And if Christianity was the true religion would you expect it to be more or less fractured then any other if the there is such a thing as biblical "God-supplied faith"?
Iano writes:
Faith is evidence
Faith is evidence in imaginary worlds.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 51 of 88 (431788)
11-02-2007 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by iano
10-30-2007 8:45 PM


Take a break
iano writes:
You believe electricity lit the lite-bulb because of evidence (faith) as to the workings of electricity in a resistive wire. You believe your brakes will stop you because you have evidence (faith) that they will stop you - they have before. Faith = evidence.
No this is sophistry.
The reason that one believes the brakes will stop the car is prior experience of them doing so and not faith. Your are playing on the various forms of the term faith/belief. You may have convinced yourself but nobody else. The form of faith you are using above is evidence based faith. The _only_ reason you have faith in the brakes is because you have evidence of brakes stopping a car before.
If I put you in the cockpit of a 747 would your faith help you determine what any particular button actually does? No. Your faith is not evidence and is useless. If you push a button, and to relief, only the cockpit light comes on you now have faith in what would happen if you pressed that button again.
Faith is not evidence.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 52 of 88 (432063)
11-03-2007 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Buzsaw
10-30-2007 8:45 PM


Ya but why.
Buzsaw writes:
On the other hand the Bible is rife with faith generating evidence for the existence of God
I can appreciate that you feel your "faith" is justified. I disagree (and wow especially chariot debris at Aqaba!) but that is not the question.
People are so use to answering just how they faith is justified they miss the implied assertion - _why_ would God so dearly value you faith-in-the-invisible in the first place?
When you examine the question in the abstract and remove all the laden verbiage and all the religious ornaments the core concept that a God would use faith-in-the-invisible as the criteria for salvation/eternal torment is absurd.
Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

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pelican
Member (Idle past 5071 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 53 of 88 (432109)
11-03-2007 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by iceage
11-03-2007 3:05 PM


Re: Ya but why.
Why is faith so important to god?
Maybe god does not exist without it?

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 Message 52 by iceage, posted 11-03-2007 3:05 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by iceage, posted 11-04-2007 6:56 PM pelican has replied

  
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6000 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 54 of 88 (432242)
11-04-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by pelican
11-03-2007 8:11 PM


Re: Ya but why.
Heinrik, sometimes the fewest words says the most....

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 Message 53 by pelican, posted 11-03-2007 8:11 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
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pelican
Member (Idle past 5071 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 55 of 88 (432287)
11-05-2007 2:53 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by iceage
11-04-2007 6:56 PM


Re: Ya but why.
What do they mean to you?

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goldenlightArchangel
Member (Idle past 1238 days)
Posts: 583
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 56 of 88 (432360)
11-05-2007 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by iceage
10-30-2007 1:34 PM


proof that faith is very important to the absent god
quote:
I am asking very specifically, why would faith be so supremely important to ...
What if the question is asked differently,
Knowing that in all the books of the Ancient Testament, there is no reference to the word faith as being spoken by the Eternal,
Nor does it appear as being spoken by Abraham and all the Prophets, including all the names of the ancients that are listed in the book of Hebrews, then why does the word faith appear in the versions of new testament as if it was anything important?
The only reason why you have the word faith in the versions of scripture is because of the fulfillness of prophecy with regard to the mixing of a wine of rejection --i.e. adulterated copies of new testament-- which would have to be overflowed into the unmixed wine of anger --i.e. the pure eternal words as originally written--.
There are evidences founded into the Rock of the Hebrews -- the eternal words of YHWH in the Law, the Psalms and the books of the Prophets,
proving that in all the places of the New Testament in Ancient Roman Language, the word fidelitate --Heb. emunah-- i.e. Fidelity; constant permanence on remaining firm with regard to the giving of the right of precedency to the word/instruction of an Only One--,
has been gradually substituted with the words 'fide' and 'fides' [i.e. faith] in the beginning of the centuries, as well as in the authorized versions of the New Testament in Greek and other languages.
A true postman does not waste time speculating if you believe he is the postman or not. You do recognize he is the postman because he simply does what he came to do. So is every eternal word that comes out of YHWH, including the Living Word that became flesh.
but in case one keeps the question this way,
quote:
why would faith be so supremely important to god
answer: faith is very important to the god, because when the god is not present, then the only way the spirit of the absent god isn't an absent one, is to convince you that it is present through belief, like the dragon Ravab(Legion)--the father of the beliefs-- does.
Is his/her god a present one?
Presence totally dispenses with the need of belief,
as it is said to the Samaritan woman:
quote:
You worship what you know not [which means ”You worship what you believe']
We worship what we know because the presence of the Eternal is manifest to the Hebrews.
When something or someone is present, it is not necessary to believe (to have faith), because you ascertain. And who ascertains knows, does not believe.
Therefore, a present Eternal Celestial totally dispenses with the faith. For if there is the Eternal Being present, you ascertain that presence, and therefore, you know that the Eternal Celestial exists, and it does not have any involvement regarding believing.
To make one believe is the strongest ability of the deceiver. For the believer uses the heart alone, which exempts total SURENESS [to love with all the understanding].
This is the purpose of a false elohim: To make one believe and then leave the brain at the door, for no ascertaining is required when all one needs is to believe.
The size of the seed determines how long it will remain on the earth without being consumed by the birds. In no way it will be consumed. For there is no bird bill that could grasp the smallest seed.
Is it faith/belief (something like a religious purpose in the mind),
or emunah--fidelity--(an action taken)?
Which word is directly related to the mustard seed's duration--permanence time, if not the one that requires time to remain enduring permanenctly--constantly until the end?
For the parable indicates that the mustard seed itself is directly related to its permanence--duration without being consumed.
Paraphrased scripture: ”If you keep a fidelitate--emunah [to YHWH] that endures--remains like a mustard seed...’.
What proceeded from bestiae obscurae [spiritually imposed doctrine]:
'...if you have a fide like a mustard seed...'.
Also, does the original manuscript say total fidelity to YHWH, or to Ges?
anche abbiamo creduto in Ges: = that's also what we've heard by the Anointed Lamb:
fossimo giustificati mediante la fidelitá in Ges Cristo...
that it is through one's emunah--fidelity to YHWH...
La Nuova Diodati -- Noi, di nascita Giudei e non peccatori fra i gentili,
sapendo che l'uomo non giustificato per le opere della legge ma per mezzo della fede in Ges Cristo, abbiamo creduto anche noi in Cristo Ges, affinché fossimo giustificati mediante la fede di Cristo e non mediante le opere della legge, poiché nessuna carne sar giustificata per mezzo della legge.
Darby paraphrased -- We, who are Hebrews by nature, [become] sinners not [because of being] among the nations,
knowing that a man is not justified through the operation of law but by the emunah--fidelity to YHWH, as we also have heard by the Lamb: that it is through one's emunah--fidelity to YHWH; and not because of operation of law, that one is justified; because through the operation of law no flesh shall be justified.
Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : does

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Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by bernerbits, posted 11-08-2007 5:39 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

  
goldenlightArchangel
Member (Idle past 1238 days)
Posts: 583
From: Roraima Peak
Joined: 02-11-2004


Message 57 of 88 (432548)
11-06-2007 4:37 PM


Another evidence that faith is only important to the absent god
Hi,
whether faith or hope, it means to place confidence; to trust with confident expectation; religious faith; an ecstasy of the mind,
Every testimony in which Abraham pleased the Eternal wasn't a testimony of expectations,
1st. because expectations and confidences are not the testimony of the real action,
and only the real action can become a real testimony;
2nd. because Abraham's hopes--expectations (or whatever confidences of the mind) wasn't the real testimony which answered the main question: Do you love me more than you love your own life?
3rd. YHWH does not try anyone, and does not test by causing suffering.
4th. because one's fidelity --i.e. the giving of the right of precedency to the word of an Only One--, only can become a real testimony through a real fact,
5th. besides, since YHWH already knows all that goes into one's brain and thoughts, then it makes no sense to require more of that.
If it was question of knowing how much expectation, confidence or religious hope goes into one's brain, then to please would be not just a testing but a hypocrite one.
quote:
Cold Foreign Object wrote in the faith definition thread:
Hebrews... says it is impossible to please... without faith...
Book of Hebrews -- paraphrased,
lef - Do not omit the sureness, which is worth a great recompense, for patience is necessary for you; that, being the purpose of YHWH, you may shelter the premise of firstfruit [of YHWH]. For yet a little and a very little while, and he that is to come, will come, and will not delay.
Bet - For it is because of [his] emunah--fidelity [to YHWH] that my righteous one shall live, - and if he withdraw himself, he shall not please my soul. But we are not the children of withdrawing unto perdition, but of fidelitate to the permanence of the soul.
Gímel - Now through emunah--fidelitate is [manifest] the substance of that [the word] which one endures in and the evidence of things that appear not. For by this [constant fidelity] the ancients obtained a pleasant testimony.
Dálet - By emunah--fidelitate we understand that the world was framed by the word of YHWH, - that from invisible things visible things might be made. For [his] fidelitate Abel offered to YHWH a sacrifice exceeding that of Cain, by which he obtained a testimony that he was just, YHWH giving testimony to his gifts - and by it he being dead yet speaks.
H - For [his] emunah--fidelitate E’noch was translated, that he should not see death - and he was not found, because YHWH had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased YHWH. For it is not possible to please without the fidelity which one must manifest in order for him to approach near YHWH, ascertain that HE IS [YHWH], and is gracious to them that constantly inquire for him.
1st. - sureness - American Standard translates ”boldness’
2nd. - premise - Living premise of firstfruit of YHWH’s Spirit, abiding within the man. - premise - from Roman praemissu, p. p. of praemittere to send before; prae before + mittere to send
3rd. - not possible to please without the fidelity - E’noch was translated because he had this testimony: that he pleased YHWH, with love, in Spirit and in truth, the true love that is not just with the heart, but literal and physically: with all one’s strength and soul. And if it was the presence of E’noch’s fidelitate that made possible for him to approach near YHWH, literal and physically to please, then it is clear that one must manisfest that fidelity, rather than the belief that man would have been given the spiritual competence to entitle the Eternal to credibility, and then validate, or credit as true, what truth is supposed to be. - View the seven evidences at 'hidden treasure'.
4th. - For [his] fidelity - ”La Nuova Diodati’ and ”La Parola Vita’ do keep the initial word ”Per’ from Roman Language, which means ”For’, and indicates the antecedent cause, reason or motive, of being chosen or elected by YHWH.
Through emunah--fidelity is [manifest] the substance of that [the word] which one endures in
and the evidence of things that appear not,
Substance of that [YHWH'S word] which Abraham endured in: Isaac.
Evidence of things that didn't appear before that moment: The lamb to die in the place of his son.
Origin of the word ”perfect’ - from Ancient Roman Language
fect = made
per = for
per-fect = made for it - or made for one another.
Modern Roman Language-- *Per fede intendiamo che l'universo stato formato per mezzo della parola di Dio, sí che le cose che si vedono non vennero all'esistenza da cose apparenti.
*Per fede Abele offrí a Dio un sacrificio pi eccellente di quello di Caino; per essa egli ricevette la testimonianza che era giusto, quando Dio attest di gradire le sue offerte; e per mezzo di essa benché morto, egli parla ancora.
*Per fede Enok fu trasferito in cielo perché non vedesse la morte, e non fu pi trovato perché Dio lo aveva trasferito; prima infatti di essere portato via, egli ricevette la testimonianza che era piaciuto a Dio. La Nuova Diodati.
Initial word according to the Modern Roman Language:
For [his] fidelitate Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because YHWH had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased YHWH. -- La Parola Vita:
* per la sua fede che Enoc fu portato [in cielo], senza che morisse. Nessuno lo trovo pi, perché Dio l'aveva preso. Prima che cio accadesse, stato detto di Enoc che "era gradito al Signore".
It is because of his [emunah] fidelitate that Henoch was translated, that he should not see death; and he was not found, because YHWH had translated him: for before his translation he had testimony that he pleased YHWH.
For [his] fidelitate Noe, having received an answer concerning those things which as yet were not seen..
Original order of manuscript:
1st. By the instruction of YHWH'SHUA - 2nd. let us leave the ritualistical rudiments [first principles], - 3rd. not laying again a foundation of penance from dead works, - and - 4th. let us go on unto perfection of emunah--fidelitate [Heb. emunah] toward YHWH, - of the instruction of washings, and of laying up of gathered hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal justice. And this will we do, if YHWH permit.
Order of puzzle according to the versions that proceeded from the scarlet beast --obscure doctrine--,
Wherefore - 2nd. leaving the first principles [ritualistical rudiments] - of - 1st. the words of YHWH'SHUA, - 4th. let us go on unto perfection; - 3rd. not laying again a foundation of penance from dead works, - and - of fidelitate [Heb. emunah] toward YHWH, of the instruction of washings, and of laying up of gathered hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal justice. And this will we do, if YHWH permit.
American Standard had been keeping the word 'perfection' where others did get rid of it.
Douay-Rheims did not keep the word 'perfection', but has been keeping 'penance' - [To impose penance; to punish.] - which fits with the ritualistical rudiments of killing the lambs continuously.
Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : red
Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : expectations aren't real
Edited by CrazyDiamond7, : testimony

  
bernerbits
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 58 of 88 (432857)
11-08-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by pelican
10-30-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Why is faith so supremely important to God
Solar energy is invisible? When's the last time you looked into the sun?

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bernerbits
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 59 of 88 (432859)
11-08-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by iano
10-31-2007 3:02 PM


Re: Then I saw her face. Now I'm a believer. Cause/Consequence
"I don't believe you exist but if you do then... Lord I need you"
As an agnostic, I pray something similar from time to time. This is sometimes accompanied by vaguely warm fuzzy feelings, but in no way does it convict me of anything like there being a personal God who loves me. Instead, it says to me that for some reason, praying helps me in emotionally difficult situations.

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bernerbits
Member (Idle past 6030 days)
Posts: 73
Joined: 10-09-2007


Message 60 of 88 (432860)
11-08-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by goldenlightArchangel
11-05-2007 2:34 PM


Re: proof that faith is very important to the absent god
proving that in all the places of the New Testament in Ancient Roman Language, the word fidelitate --Heb. emunah-- i.e. Fidelity;
Except the NT wasn't written in Latin or Hebrew. It's written in Greek and Aramaic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 11-05-2007 2:34 PM goldenlightArchangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by goldenlightArchangel, posted 11-09-2007 4:04 PM bernerbits has replied

  
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