Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion

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we have also never had a pregnancy occur.

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...that you know of.You could have had some fertilized eggs never implant, or one of you could have some undetected fertility-reducing issue that, unless you have actually tried to get pregnant (which you may have, I don't know) you wouldn't know about.I'm not in any sort of disagreement with your main argument, but I just wanted to put those possibilities out there.

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It has many more implications than for abortion itself. For all those who are against abortion because they are pro-life, the truth of the above statement ought to mandate that they also be for socialized medicine. How many "dead babies" come from our incredibly backward capitalist health care system.

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A COMPARISON BETWEEN THE US AND OTHER RICH NATIONS

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/mi/mi_worldregn.aspYou an try this website of stats from the UN. It lists regions rather than countries.

The rich countries aren't excluded, they are just lumped together in a "other=European" category, I think.I've had a hard time finding the stats that you want.

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If you remove a zygote from the womb, you are the cause for the sustained injury.

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Many zygotes never implant, or remove themselves from the womb.Do you think those zygotes committed suicide?Sometimes a woman's body rejects zygotes and fetuses and miscarries them. Do you think that we should hold the woman's immune system responsible for murdering those zygotes and fetuses?Or, do you suggest that we require women to search their menstrual fluids for those zygotes, those "babies", so we can implant them in some other woman so that every single zygote gets their chance at life, no matter what?This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-05-2005 08:50 AM

Rat, what are the risks to a woman during and after carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth?

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Isn't that just life?
please...

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So, if chance circumstances lead to non-implantation or miscarriage, you have no problems at all, but if exactly the same result occurs through deliberate action, you are against it?So, it's not the actual abortion you are against, but the ability for the woman to choose it.

I asked: Rat answered:

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Life?

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This makes no sense.She is not at risk of "remaining alive".What are the risks to a woman's health during and after carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth?Is she at increased risk of ingrown toenails? Split ends? What?Please make a list.I'll even let you restrict your list to the health risks faced by women in the US, which are still somewhat greater than most other First World countries, but far less than in Third World countries.I mean, since you are generally against abortion, I thought you should show that you know what women go through in carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth, and also what can and does go wrong, and how often.I think you should also compare those health risks with the health risks of abortion.

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Wow, if it's that bad, then don't have sex.

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I'm not saying "it's so bad that nobody should ever do it".I am saying that you are making the error of casually dismissing carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth as some kind of walk in the park that carries no or very few health risks or other risks to a woman.It is just not a trivial thing to do.

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You expect to change the laws of nature or something.

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No, I don't. I simply want you to realize that there are significant risks to a woman, including maiming, future infertility, and death, during pregnancy, during childbirth, and postpartum.

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Let's start engineering men to carry the child now, in his balls or something.

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Yeah, and I'll bet men everywhere would be lining up for that privilage.Where's that list, hon?What adverse affects can happen to a woman's health during pregnancy, childbirth, and post partum?Women don't want men to give birth unless you want to.What we do want is for you to not trivialize what women's bodies go through and what the risks to our health and lives are.

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I think I have to keep mentioning that if a woman is in danger, outside of the normal risks, then I am for saving the woman.

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What are those "normal" risks, rat?

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The bible teaches me that the God comes first, then my woman, then my kids. My wife and I are one.

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Actually, I think that the Bible also teaches that you come before after God, before your wife, then your children.

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Let me ask you a question, do you think it's ok to make a baby if you don't really want to?

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I don't equate a fertilized egg, zygote, blastocyst, or fetus with a "baby". A "baby" has been born.But, if you meant to say "Do you think it's ok to get pregnant if you don't really want to?", I think that depends upon the circumstances.If someone is irresposible and has a lot of sex, knowing full well that they could get pregnant or get someone else pregnant, then I don't think it's good. Prevention of unwanted pregnancy requires lots of education, from an early age, and lots of readily-available contraception, positive attitudes towards sex, and the promotion of equality between the sexes.If someone takes careful precautions to not get cause pregnancy but the contraception fails, then I have no judgement on their behavior.Too much unprotected teenage sex goes on in this country because of the taboo and "dirtyness" we associate with it, and also because of the disrespect of women and girls. If sex was considered more of a natural part of growing up, and if women (and men these days!) were repected and not sexualized/comodified/objectified so early, then people would prepare better and not "stumble into" sexual encounters that go farther than they want them to. People wouldn't be ashamed to get and use contraception.

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I think I have to keep mentioning that if a woman is in danger, outside of the normal risks, then I am for saving the woman.

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The same risk as you crossing the street. Should we kill all people who drive cars?

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Stop being obtuse.What are the risks to a woman's health that come from carrying apregnancy to term, giving birth, and postpartum?

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Life.

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Riverrat.As I said before, the above response does not make sense in the English language.The health risks involves in carrying a pregnancy to term, giving birth, and postpartum are not "life".Do the following sentences make sense to you?"The health risks a woman takes on while pregnant, giving birth, and postpartum are; life. She is risking life."That is meaningless gibberish, riverrat, you will have to do better.Now, since you seem to want to completely avoid even thinking about the health riskes to a woman during pregnancy, childbirth, and postpartum, let alone do a little research, I will list some of them for you.http://www.healthsquare.com/fgwh/wh1ch25.htmEctopic Pregnancy
Molar Pregnancy (requires surgery)
Gestational Diabetes
Gestational High Blood Pressure
Kidney Disease
Chronic vomiting for the first three months of gestation
Bleeding
Too much amniotic fluid which causes shortness of breath because the lungs cannot expand properly. May require hospitalization.
Placenta Previa, which causes excessive bleeding.
Placental abruption, which causes severe bleeding, nausea, and vomiting
Multiple births
Postmaturity of the fetusAdditionally, women with preexisting diabetes mellitus, heart disease, kidney disease sickle cell anemia, lupus, thyroid imbalance, high blood pressure, kidney disease, PKU, epilepsy, depression and other mental disorders, and who are younger than 20 and older than 35 all face increased risks to their own health from carrying a pregnancy to term, giving birth, and postpartum.COMMON SOURCES OF DISCOMFORT IN AN UNCOMPLICATED PREGNANCYDigestive problems, such as heartburn
Dizziness
Emotional upset
Excessive body warmth
Fatigue
Gas, constipation
General aches
Headaches
Hemorrhoids
Increased or decreased desire for sex
Increased urination
Nausea and vomiting
Pelvic pressure
Sleeping problems
Sore nipples and breasts
Stuffy nose
Swollen ankles and feet
Swollen or bleeding gums
Varicose veins
Especially in late pregnancy:
Back pain
Leg cramps
Shortness of breath
Unsteady balancePostpartum Hemorrhage in Emergency Medicine: Practice Essentials, Background, PathophysiologyPostpartum HemorrhageFrequency:In the US: The exact incidence of PPH is difficult to determine. A reasonable consensus is that 1-10% of pregnancies are complicated by PPH, with the actual number in the range of 2-4%.Mortality/Morbidity:PPH can cause severe morbidity and mortality.Possible complications include exposure to blood products, the need for surgical intervention, and the need for permanent sterilization to control bleeding.One study of more than 2,000 women in the United States revealed that obstetric hemorrhage is the cause of 13% of maternal deaths. PPH is thought to be the cause in one third of these cases.Risk factors include the following:
Prolonged third stage of labor
Preeclampsia
Mediolateral episiotomy
Previous PPH
Multiple gestation
Arrest of descent
Maternal hypotension
Coagulation abnormalities
Lacerations of the cervix, vagina, or perineum
Asian or Hispanic ethnicity
Delivery with forceps or vacuum
Augmented laborNulliparity, multiparity (20-fold increase in risk), and polyhydramniosTell me, rat, how does the above compare to "walking across the street" in your mind?Please explain how the risks to health are similar.Be specific.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 02-13-2005 09:03 AM

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WOW! sounds bad, kind of sounds like life to me.

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You didn't answer my question.Can you please explain how the risks of carrying a pregnancy to term, giving birth, and postpartum are similar to "walking across the street", as you previously claimed?Or, perhaps you would like to change your mind regarding this comparison?Why are you so snottily stonewalling me here, rat?Why are you so afraid to address the reality of what women risk to their health during pregnancy, giving birth, and postpartum?

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Maybe people shouldn't have sex, unles they are willing to take all that risk.

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My point, rat, is that abortion is not simply done for convenience, and that even "normal, uncomplicated" pregnancies are far from trivial and ALWAYS greatly affect a woman's body and ALWAYS expose her to greater risk of death, infertility, and maiming.You pass judgement upon and wish to restrict women who choose abortion when there is nothing detectably wrong with the pregnancy, but, as I have demonstrated, there is ALWAYS meaningful danger to the woman's health to carry a pregnancy to term, give birth, and postpartum.

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In other words because you say so.

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No, the rules of logic say so.Do you want someone who is formally trained in logic to evaluate your argument, since you don't seem to accept RAZD's or holmes' evaluation of your argument?I think there are several people with thoses qualifications here on the board...Rrhain and Percy, I think.

Excellent, I knew there was at least one of you here.I'm not sure the rat will accept your analysis of his non-argument, though.He's gone into belligerant mode.