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Author Topic:   Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 55 of 316 (182429)
02-01-2005 7:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
01-29-2005 9:52 AM


For starters, I am fundamentally against abortion. That being said, I am also fundamentally against making abortion illegal in the sense that most in the pro-life movement would like it.
What RAZD has done here with his excellent essay has, I believe, provided a door to a solution to one of the most black and white problems in the political and moral arena today. While there really is little middle ground on the abortion issue there does seem to be some solutions that would cater both to a wide variety of moralities while preserving personal freedom. Let me clarify.
The Pro-Life movement would now have a stable base from which to get reasonable restrictions on partial birth abortions. The Pro-Choice movement would have secured the undeniable right to choose an early term abortion as well as the morning after pill and other contraceptives. Both would have their rationale grounded in objectivity rather than the tug-o-war moral mud wrestling that is going on currently.
By defining "personness" in some kind of objective way it empowers those on both sides of the issue to take a more or less permanent piece out of the proverbial pie of social influence. Even if they both still envy not having the whole pie it is making a compromise out of a situation where seemingly none could exist before.
My opinion is that the type of thinking displayed by RAZD is extremely enlightened and we need more of it in this world.
As for riverrat, I can completely feel where you are coming from on a moral level. My personal moral belief is that abortion is a sin on the exact same level as murder, lying, stealing, etc. The only difference I think is that as both a Christian and an American I cannot support legislating my morality. I feel it would weaken both the principles Christ taught and the freedom that comes with being an American. The only thing the pro-life movement has accompilshed so far is painting a picture of Christians as theocratic zealots trying to destroy the fabric of America.
My mother, raised Southern Baptist, was assaulted by protesters while walking to her Grandmother's house which happened to be across the street from a planned parenthood clinic. Here she was, a firm believer that abortion is wrong and a sister in Christ, being called a slut, whore, murderer, among other colorful names just because she dared to walk near a reproductive health clinic. Where in the madness of this movement is the love of Christ being displayed?
If the goal is trying to save children's lives then why not tread a path that actually may reduce the number of abortions rather than one that damages both the cause and the image of Christ. Preventing 100% of abortions is a pipe-dream that will never come to pass. Even if it is made against the law all it will serve to do is push abortion underground and cause more suffering to women and children in dispair. We need to be supporting reproductive services so that, God forbid, an abortion must occur that it is done safely and accompanied by the professional council of a doctor who can explain the dangers and other caveats.
The work of Christ is done by trying hard to be like Him and always in His council. It is not done by vulgarity, violence, harrassment, and fanaticism.

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by RAZD, posted 01-29-2005 9:52 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by RAZD, posted 02-01-2005 9:20 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 73 of 316 (182601)
02-02-2005 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by riVeRraT
02-02-2005 6:40 AM


Previous Post
Hi riVeRraT,
I am just curious. Did you get a chance to read my previous post "Message 55"? It was reply to the OP so you may have missed it. I had hoped to hear your thoughts on what I wrote.
I just wanted to point out based on your comment:
...and opens the door to abortion for whatever reason you choose.
Doesn't it also open the door to a legit set of restrictions on partial birth/late term abortions? If "personness" is defined in an objective way it does give a mandate to free early term abortions but also to restricting late term ones. It is a give a little take a little situation with the end result being that more unborn children who make it to late term will be protected. If the goal is to reduce abortions then why is this not a valid step? Is it the whole enchilada or nothing for you? If so why, especially if children end up being saved?

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by riVeRraT, posted 02-02-2005 6:40 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2005 5:52 AM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 86 of 316 (182827)
02-03-2005 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by riVeRraT
02-03-2005 5:52 AM


Missed Point
I know you have a lot to respond to with me, RAZD, and holmes. Thank you for at least this small reply to know that my messages are not just wasted bits.
Respectfully though, It does not seem that you read my original message (Message 55). Can you at least let me know that you read the original? I say this because you seemed to address a point that I did not make in either of my posts.
I never said, nor do I recall RAZD saying, anything about being able to communicate as part of any definition of "personness". My post was about a compromise that, while insufficient for both sides, would give value to the argument to restrict partial birth/late term abortions.
It just seems that you are missing the part about RAZD's argument that could actually mandate protecting unborn children in later stages of development (2nd and 3rd trimester). I am on your side here. I think we do need SOME restrictions against late term abortions.
I repeat my questions to you. Must it be all or nothing? If so why given that some children might be saved?
If all you do is let me know that you read my initial post (Message 55) then any other failure to answer my questions will be tolerable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by riVeRraT, posted 02-03-2005 5:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by riVeRraT, posted 02-04-2005 7:45 AM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3933 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 216 of 316 (185911)
02-16-2005 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Silent H
02-16-2005 12:43 PM


Planned Parenthood and Satan
My favorite mantra from a pro-lifer was how Planned Parenthood was a vice of Satan and must be stopped for the good of all. Certainly we must stop immediatly a place that treats women and children they way they do. Providing information and adequate healthcare for people who want to be responsible in their reproductive choices? Damn them all to hell with their evil ways!
My favorite thing to ask a pro-life person is when the last time they were foster parents of have adopted a child, especially one with FAS or some other birth defect. I was suprised once by someone who had and that was respectable.
Overall though you are 100% dead on about the complete and utter failure of the pro-life movement to hold even the slightest morsel of integrity. They are anti-abortion, anti-reproductive health, anti-post natal support, anti-education, and anti-American.

By the way, for a fun second-term drinking game, chug a beer every time you hear the phrase, "...contentious but futile protest vote by democrats." By the time Jeb Bush is elected president you will be so wasted you wont even notice the war in Syria.
-- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Silent H, posted 02-16-2005 12:43 PM Silent H has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by nator, posted 02-16-2005 6:43 PM Jazzns has not replied

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