The Other side of the Jesus coin

I find it sad that you are saying you are a Christian, yet you will not tell me why you say you are a Christian. If were both Christians I believe we should share the things of the Lord with eachother. I will say that I believe one sacrifice for sins has been made. We our saved through His blood and nothing else. I believe the world religions gods desire you to do works for salvation. So there is a burden placed on people. So they live their lives wondering if they will enter heaven. There is not an assurance of their salvation. In Christ we know we have justification by His death. Our righteousness is of filthy rags. I still want to talk about Islam, the Crusades and the Old Testament judgements if your are interested? I'm still looking into the other prophecies. Christ said narrow is the way that leads to life but broad is the path that leads to destruction. So I will be "narrow minded". Christ said there will be many false prophets in the world. I care deeply for people of other religions because what I have seen in religions like Islam has only brought bondage to people, not freedom. I dont want strife with you because that will not help anything.1. In what way did I nullify the few prophecies I mentioned?2. Do you believe Islam started with Muhammad?

We are getting nowhere. So far you repeated your personal beliefs about Christianity in a number of posts, but you have not substantively addressed a single issue raised by your assertions about other religions, or other branches of the Christian faith.If you "still want to talk about Islam, the Crusades and the Old Testament judgements" then do so. I enumerated 13 issues ...1: You claimed prophecy and history made the Bible unique. You ignored counterexamples.
2: You claimed a special position for the Bible in relation to the seven day week and marriage. You ignore counterexamples.
3: You implied there was some significance in the martyrdom of disciples. You ignored counterexamples.
4: You asked repeatedly when Islam had brought peace. You ignored the answers and counterexamples of Christian warmongering.
5: You accussed the Holy Qu'ran of commending murder. You ignored the counterexamples Biblical support for genocide.
6: You claimed millions had been slaughtered in the name of Allah. You ignored the counterexamples of slaughter by Christians, except in the vaguest terms.
7: You claimed the Crusades were led by Catholicism. You ignored the historical correction. You ignored the counterexample of Protestant torture and murder.
8: You claimed that Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism do not have prophecy. You ignored counterexamples given you.
9: You represented a naive view of the Islamic doctrine of judgement. You ignored and still ignore the detailed counterargument.
10: You asked again when Islam has brought peace. You ignored a specific, detailed, rebuttal by another poster.
11: You asked again about murder by Islamists. Yet again you ignored the counterexamples of murder by Christians.
12: You asked again about murder by Islamists today. Yet again you ignored the counterexamples of murder by protestant christians today.
13: You asked about the Islamic doctrine of sin. You ignored my answer.Now let's this straight. You made direct claims about these issues, with the exception of item 3. You did not preface these accusations with "I believe" or indicate that these statements were meant to be anything other than factual claims about other faiths. Even if you had, "I believe" would be no excuse for casting aspersions on those who disagree with you.I see no reason to respond to posts about your personal belief or my personal belief. Unless you respond to the issues you raised, you can forget this thread as far as I am concerned.Onc we get the facts about these issues straight, we may then be able to move on to questions of how Christian's should contemplate and learn from them.[This message has been edited by Mister Pamboli, 04-07-2003]

I should have followed this thread since. I guess I would help you clear up your problems.I will cite some verses to help you understand."1.So how is sin attoned for by Allah?"
040.003: The Forgiver of sin, the Accepter of repentance, the Stern in punishment, the Bountiful. There is no Allah save Him. Unto Him is the journeying.
048.002: That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come, and may perfect His favour unto thee, and may guide thee on a right path,
002.271: If ye publish your almsgiving, it is well, but if ye hide it and give it to the poor, it will be better for you, and will atone for some of your ill-deeds. Allah is Informed of what ye do.
008.033: But Allah would not punish them while thou wast with them, nor will He punish them while they seek forgiveness."2.How is one declared righteous before Allah? "
002.177: It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and giveth wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the Allah-fearing."3.When has Islam brought peace?"
Well, Islam united the Arab tribes, inspired non-Arabs (Turks, Indians, Persians, Berbers, Jews) to take shelter under Islamic sovereignty, etc. Read a medieval history book.4.In the name of Allah has his followers murdered millions of people in obedience to the Qur'an?
Well, there are Muslim leaders which have a drive for expansion, either driven by worldly matters or to spread God's word across the Earth. Don't Christians still do the same?5.Are Muslims still murdering people today in the name of Allah?
To kill in the name of Allah is restricted to several conditions only.
002.217: They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing.6.Muslims believe the Bible is corrupted, would you please give me the evidence of this?
004.171: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.Sorry of this is not helping you.

Thank you Andya. I hope I have not misrepresented your faith too badly while trying to answer drummachine.

How is this prophecy? I'm still looking into the prophecies of other religions. The problem is that there can only be one truth. There can be only one way. Prophecy in the bible has been earth changing events with evidence.Islam 101
1.Who is Allah? He was the original chief idol. The pre-Islamic name, corresponding to the Babylonian Bel. He was the moon(crescent) god and had a wife who was the sun goddess. They had three children. Islamic "Allah" unknowable, impersonal & capricious (untrustworthy)2.Who is Muhammad? He was devoted to Al-lah the moon god. He had 16 wives and 6 others. His youngest was 6! Even though Sura 4:3 forbids more than 4. Sura 40:55 Muhammad is not sinless. Sura 17:91-95 Never performed a
single miracle. He did not die for anyone. No personal relationship possible: he is dead.3.If Islam is resisted? Sura 5:33 Their punishment is execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from the opposite sides, or exile from the land. Sura 9:73 Al Tawbah(The Repentance) Prophet, make war on unbelievers and hypocrites, and deal rigorously with them.4.Violence commanded? Sura 9:5 Fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war. Sura 3:106-107 American black people have been widely deceived. Only people with black faces will be damned. Arab Muslims were enslaving black Africans long before Westerners.5.Islamic history and today? In the name of Allah millions of Jews(and non jews) and Christians(and non Christians) have been slaughtered. Even today they still are. Over 2 millions Sudanese Christians have been slaughtered by Muslims and are still tortured for Christ.6.Free of error? Claimed in Sura 85:21,22. Claims to be consistent with the Bible? Sura 7:51 and 10:3 claims 6 days of creation. Sura 41, 8 days of creation. Sura 32-48 disagree with Genesis 7. Numerous errors concerning Abraham: Father's name was not Azar (6:74) Did not live in Mecca (14:37) Did not sacrifice Ishmael (37:100-112) Eight sons, not two, did not build the Ka'aba (2:125-127) Was not thrown into a fire by Nimrod (21:68,69,9:69), etc. Numerous chronological errors. Flood did not occur in Moses' day (7:136 vs 7:59) Bible not in Arabic in Muhammad's day: 9th century!The Quran is an amaglam of Hinduism, Buddhism, Mythaism, Greek mystery religions, as well as elements from Judaism and Christianity.Why did God bring judgement to people in the Old Testament?
We have to look at the situation at that time. These nations were defiled and totally immoral. They were burning little children to death on altars. God who is holy and hates sin warned them 400 years. They would not stop. Would it be right to let these things go on forever? Its like today. Should we let Suddam Hussein or a Hitler slaughter and torture millions of people and not bring justice and stop these things? If we think those things are okay were totally insane! There is a judgement coming to this world. This world is desperately wicked! Written all through Scripture. The Great Day of the Lord God! Does God enjoy this? Of course not! But if He warns people 400 years, "Stop burning these children!" what shall He do? Will He say oh well? And about the Crusades they had nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus Christ. The ones holding the banner of Christ did these things in direct disobedience. But in the Christ of the Bible we have freedom through His sacrifice. And can have a personal relationship with Him forever. Not by our works.

Why would that be so, other than the provincialism of those who say it?No offense, drum, but the balance of your post sounds like you've been reading Jack Chick tracts.[This message has been edited by Coragyps, 04-08-2003]

In my Admin role, I notice that you are in breach of Forum guideline 6, and not for the first time: Never include material not your own without attribution to the original source.Your notes on Islam are more or less directly copied from Chuck Missler. http://www.templemount.org/missler.html available here and on other sites.Please take the time to post some of your own opinions rather than those of someone else.[This message has been edited by AdminPamboli, 04-08-2003]

So there can only be one way? In that case of all the many, many "ways" put forward over history at most one can be right. And even one isn't absolutely necessary (we may not have stumbled on the one yet).Now how do you prove yours is that one? How do you even hint that it might be?I think that kind of statement is very dangerous to you. If the majority picked the one then there is a significant chance yours wouldn't make the cut. I've had Christians tell me that creationists are reallly christians that they are a cult that a Christian wouldn't want to be asscociated with. Fortunately for you you're left alone to believe what you want. But don't do to much of this "I'm right and you're wrong" stuff. Historically we've seen a lot of religious folk react very badly to that. Very badly indeed.In matters of faith I'd suggest that you leave well enough alone.I like what I heard on the radio from a Jew the other day. He said that a good Muslem, a good Hindu, a good Christian or a good Jew are all equal before God and all welcome to him. Somehow that seems to me to be a much more "christian" attitude.

I have decided not to reply further to drummachine's posts until he or she responds to the issues they have already raised.It should be quite clear from their last post, message 80, that here is someone who either cannot, will not or dare not cast out the beam from their own eye.Sometimes this reveals itself in trivia: that they seem to regard the destruction of Tyre, or the revenge on the Edomites as "earth changing events with evidence" while the conquest of the Americas by Europeans is ... well, what I wonder? An afternoon ramble?But sadly it also reveals itself in barely disguised intolerance and bigotry. If it was not enough to say the Crusades were not fought by Christians but by Catholics (let's just denigrate the longest history of Western christianity and the beliefs of millions in passing), drummachine now feels "qualified" to insult and denigrate Islam. To do so, however, drummachine cannot even put together a personal post. Instead we get a cut and paste job from Chuck Missler (he who suggests that the Oklahoma bombing was a government plot to discredit evangelical Christians Twilight's Last Gleaming?: Prelude to Tyranny? – Chuck Missler – Koinonia House ).In addition to spurious references to the worst translations of the Qu'ran, the post is simply littered with unsupported insults.Until drummachine shows that he or she is actually capable of tackling issues in good faith and responding to relevant rebuttals, I feel no choice but to ignore future posts.Andya, and other Muslims on this board, please know that drummachine is not expressing any mainstream or respectable Christian view in his post. It is simply copied from a political bigot and extremist, who believes, amongst other things, that UFOs represent the return of a race of giants mentioned in the Bible, and who predicted that the Y2K bug would be so serious that military law would be imposed in American cities, and who encouraged churches to stock up on food and medical supplies for the catastrophe. drummachine perhaps thinks Missler is a prophet!That there are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam no one can doubt. That they can co-exist in mutual respect and dignity is also beyond doubt, as shown by the well documented histories of Islamic caliphates tolerant of Christianity.Until drummachine starts to tackle some of the many issues raised in rebuttal of the nonsense posted, I think it best just to let such shameful prejudices wither on the vine.

There was no cut and paste there. I have been to Islamic conferences and have books on it. So what is the history of Islam? And lets get another thing straight. Just because I say these things does not mean I am being judgemental. I have not condemned anyone. I am not the judge. I am one who is with sin and needs the grace of the Lord continually. He is the One who brings life to men. He is the Light of the world. But He himself said that men love darkness instead of light. Is that not the truth about Islam? I study the history of Islam but thats what seems to be brought up for some reason. I dont know about some of Misslers teaching. Some of his teaching is good. Some of it is weird. No I do not believe he is a prophet. Like I will say again. Those murdering in the name of Christ are totally against the teachings of Christ. Yet you believe otherwise. People who claimed to be Christians or Catholics who cares. I dont even know if you are a Christian Mister Pamboli. How can I reason with you if you will not reason with me? What kind of foundation do you have? So in what way does this have to do with prophecy? Isaiah 44:6-8 Thu says the LORD, the King of Israel, And His Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the First and I am the Last. Besides Me there is no God. And who can proclaim as I do? Then let him declare it and set it in order for Me, since I appointed the ancient people. And the things that are coming and shall come, let them show these to them. Do not fear, nor be afraid; Have I not declared it? You are my witnesses. Is there a God besides Me? Indeed there is no other Rock. I know not one.Exodus 3:14 I AMJohn 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.John 14:5-6 "Lord, we do not know where you are going, and how can we know the way? Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, the Truth and the
Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. How can there be many absolutes when religions contradict eachother? Thats nonsense. Who sets the rules? I guess its what ever we want to believe. One sacrifice has been made for sin. So when I believe there is one way please let me share why. Sure being a Christian costs everything yet you gain everything. You will be scoffed at by your family, friends, the world and maybe even be martyred. Its interesting and of course sad that the media has totally excepted religions like Islam and Hinduism but not Christianity. Even public schools teach Islam. Its because man loves darkenss. But there can only be one truth.Why Jesus Christ is the only Way?
1.Testimony of creation. In 6 six days the Lord made all things and rested on the seventh. We have a seven day week. If the Bible is the revealed Word of the living God it should fit nicely with the origin and purpose of life. It fits perfectly. Why did He give commandments? Because He is holy and without sin and He loves us and wants us to walk in His righteousness. Not our own. Look at what it says. The Word of God divides soul and spirit. His thoughts about us are more then the sand of the sea. Who will build a house for me since I have given man life and breath? What kind of radical claim is that?
2.World wide flood. There are marine fossils on mountains and places like Missouri. Many places in the world show that there had to be a catastrophe. A lot of water and a little bit of time. Fossils form quickly.
3.Archaeology fits perfectly with Biblical history.
4.Prophecy that has changed history. Not false vague claims. Does God exist? My friend look at the Bible and then the history of Israel. Prophecy written in advanced that was fulfilled and prophecy that will continually be fulfilled.
5.Jesus Christ. Fulfilled all the Old Testament Messianic prophecies exactly. Even things like where He would be born and the exact day He would ride a donkey into the temple. The radical claims He made. He came to heal, restore and free the afflicted from their bondage to sin. He said come to me. The God of love has come and and calls all to Him to repentance and to have a relationship and to an eternal inheritance. The punishment for our sin He bore at the cross because of His love for us. We dont see Muhammad saying, "Come to me children and I will heal you." We dont see Muhammad, the Dalia Lama or Maharishi Mahesh Yogi having Roman spikes being driven into them and being lifted up on the cross and saying, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do."Islam: Allah is the moon god.
Hinduism: Everything is god.
Buddhism: There is no god.The Bible is the only book that makes sense. It is the history book of the universe. The true scientific text book. Because it is the Only inspired word given to the sons of men. In His healing hands are the blessings of life if man would only humble himself and call on the name of the Lord and have a heart of repentance. Mankind has trampled the Bible. I have as well in my life. Even the Christianity on TV and in the media. The false teachers have totally poisoned the Lord God. Making it into a money scam. So when someone sees these things on TV they think this is true Christianity there displeased and want no interest in it. But knowone will be turned away with a broken spirit before Him. Then the word of eternal God is clear to us all.Romans 3:23-24 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Drummachine, that was one hell of a post.PE

Mister Pamboli,The link to Islam is saying Muhammad is in the Old Testament and New Testament I dont think so. The Hindu and Buddhist ptophecies are not prophecy at all according to Bible prpohecy. Its like Nastradamus. There have been false prophets all through history and even today. Muhammad was a false prophet. The teachings of Buddhism believe that we can become Masters. Hinduism teaches reincarnation. Maharishi Mahesh Yogi calls God "the vacuum state" in TM. The karma built up in the present life must be worked off in a future reincarnation. In that process more karma is accumulated, which must be worked off in a subsequent life, and so it continues endlessly. The cycle offers no release. This is sadly destructive and deceptive. I under stand that this is mostly what other countries teach. But its like America. Millions of children today are being taught "without evidence and hope" there is no creator and everything is by time and chance. I was. Then it gives children a foundation of destruction and sends them into a downward spiral into thinking that they can do what ever they want with their life. Most of my life I lived that way. Until Christ changed my heart and gave me the reason of life. I have peace now not a religious structure. In the world religions we see man trying to have a righteousness before God. That is religion. Only in Christ there is freedom and He has paid the price.Again my friend how is this prophecy? [This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-09-2003]

quote:

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There was no cut and paste there.

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You are on dangerous ground, drummachine.You have breached the forum guidelines already by including material not your own without attribution to the original source. I am disappointed that you have not acknowledged copying material or apologized to the forum for doing so.You also continue to avoid addressing rebuttals through the introduction of new information or by providing additional argument. There are many posts in this thread with detailed rebuttals which you have not addressed.It would do you and your position some credit, if you would "reason with" the others on this forum. "Reasoning with" includes answering the issues they raise.

I got my resources yes from others. I typed it out. But do you not get information from others who got there information from others? But when I look into these things I use discernment. So what questions do I need to answer?

You know, Drum, it isn't like the cut-n-paste isn't obvious. I'm going to prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that the words in your Message 80 are not your own, but instead come from http://www.templemount.org/missler.html, or from websites he draws from or that draw from him. This should be sufficient evidence. You changed the presentation a little, but you copied it. Not only did you post words not your own without attribution, but when confronted with the fact you lied and denied it.Drum, I think you ought to take some time off and reflect for a while. At first you just seemed like a very nice guy, just extremely devout, but you're turning in to a prime example of the worst kind of Creationist, one who believes that lies in the service of Christ are not lies. Behaving in this way does evangelical Christianity no favors.--Percy