The Other side of the Jesus coin

Yes I get some information from others. Do you? I am not denying that. It doesn't matter if I get information from others. I did type it out. But is it correct? Thats what matters.[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-09-2003]

Most of that was taken right out of the Quran.

So what questions would you like me to answer? If you could please give me evidence of for example "Allah not being the moon god" please let me know. What about the prophecies of other religions?

So - you are willing to reason with us? Good.Let's take issue 1 on my list, and your first unreasoned assertion - prophecies. What is it about Biblical prophecies that make them unique?a: You claim they are unique in that they deal with world changing events: I pointed out that some of your claimed prophecies, such as the destruction of Tyre, were not uniquely world changing compared to prophecies of other religions. You have not addressed this. Please do so.b: You imply that they are unique in their accuracy. "Not false vague claims." Yet many of the examples you give are extremely vague, giving no details of circumstances, dates etc. I provided you with a specific example of a precise non-Christian prophecy. you would not even recognise it as prophecy. No reasoning there, just denial. Please address this issue - in what ways are your claimed prophecies more accurate than the numerous counterexamples given?If you show you can "reason with" us on prophecy - not just preaching about "one truth" or whatever, but supporting your assertions with reasoned arguments - then we can move on to issue 2.But first, let's have your answers to those two very specific points regarding prophecy: uniqueness of scope and uniqueness of accuracy.

Hi Drum,There's a little reply icon at the bottom of each message. If you want to reply to a message click on it's reply icon. That way people can tell which message you're replying to. I'm only guessing that your message was a reply to me. Whether the information is correct is irrelevant to the issue of honesty and integrity. You posted someone else's work as your own. It was someone else who researched the Quran, found the proper passages, organized them, and surrounded them with discussion and argument. Changing the order and typing it in from scratch instead of cut-n-pasting doesn't mean it isn't plagiarism.And saying, "It wasn't a cut-n-paste" just because you typed it in from scratch is Clintonesque. We know what the meaning of the word "is" is, and you is lying. I'm really curious how you reconcile this with your Christian beliefs.We get much of our information from other people, from books, from websites, etc. When using written communication, if we are conveying information garnered over time and integrated into our mental knowledge base so that we can call it out own, and if we are writing our own thoughts, then no attribution is necessary. But when you're reading text from a newspaper or a book or a website and typing it into a message box then you must provide attribution. Anything else is plagiarism. This isn't rocket science. Learn it. Love it. Live it.--Percy

Percipient,I didn't claim that it was my work. BUT is the information correct about Islam or not?

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I didn't claim that it was my work.

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Posting copied work without acknowledgement is effectively claiming it as your own. It is against the forum rules to do so. You still haven't even shown a glimmer of apology for breaching the rules.

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BUT is the information correct about Islam or not?

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You have thirteen issues to deal with first, before we start on your more recent claims and allegations. Let's just say I'm looking forward to dealing with them. It's about time you showed willingness to reason with others.Issue 1: Prophecy. I'm waiting.

Really? I didn't see Missler's name anywhere in the message. The only name was yours, drummachine, sitting right there at the top left of your message.When you sign your name to something, which is what you do when you enter your name and password, you are in essence reiterating your agreement to follow the forum guidelines, which require that you provide attribution for material not your own. You've been reminded of this repeatedly in messages, yet you keep up a constant stream of unattributed material.Your "Is the information correct?" questions are attempts to change the subject, because the accuracy of plagiarized material is not the issue. Even if you post unattributed material from EverythingHereIsALie.com it would still be plagiarism.I suggest that you begin formulating your own ideas and arguments and stop stealing those of others.--Percy

And we can equally accurately say "The Bible is an amalgam of tribal Hebrew war-god worship, Mithraism, Babylonian religions, and Egyptian religions, with some heavy borrowing from Greek thought." Big deal. All cultures build on predecessors.

I apologize. I will make sure that I address the persons name. Is that the truth of Islam?

I accused drummachine of plagiarisng Chuck Missler. I may have been hasty. The odd word "Mythaism" - probably a misspelling for Mithraism - in the post that Coragyps just quoted, was quickly googled for. Guess what?I only found three uses of that spelling on Google. They all come from the same article by one Victor Carvis, who says: "The Koran is an amalgam of Hinduism, Buddhism, Mythaism, Greek mystery religions, as well as elements from Judaism and Christianity." Which, surprise, surprise, includes the unique misspelling that drummachine copies!What about the rest of Carvis's article? Well, it includes word for word identical phrases and paragraphs with Missler's!Compare them here ...
Carvis: Forbidden
Missler: http://www.templemount.org/missler.htmlSo maybe we shouldn't be too hard on drummachine? After all, it seems like plagiarism and misrepresentation are just the norm in his faith. But rules is rules.

Mister Pamboli,Is what Missler or any other person showing the facts of Islam? If the facts are correct they should line up with investigations by other people. Will you be willing to answer that? I got some things to take care of. So I will return later. I agree. Lets just look at prophecy and then move on. But just for starters.1.Where is the evidence of the prophecy for Quetzelcoatl? Would you please give me some evidence? What you posted about Quetzelcoatl really didn't bring justice to true prophecy.

For the prophecy concerning Quetzalcoatl you can check out:David Carrasco, "Quetzalcoatl and the Irony of Empire", (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1973),Miguel Leon Portilla. Vision de los Vencidos, Relaciones Indigenas de la Conquista U.N.A.M., 1992.Tompkins, Jane. Indians, Textualism and the Problems of History excerpted in Ways of Reading, 4th ed. (Boston: Bedford Books, 1996).Or you could try: "Anales de Cuautitlan", translated by Willard Gingerich, and included in "The Flayed God". by Roberta and Peter Markman.I'll answer your questions about Islam to the best of my when we get to them - after you have dealt in good faith with the issues raised with you. Patience is a virtue, no?So issue 1 remains your unsupported claims that your claimed Christian prophecies are uniquely specific and uniquely world changing.You seem to be trying to wriggle out of this by now introducing a concept of "true prophecy." You have been asked about your definition of prophecy, so now is the time to answer that point. What is prophecy to you, that you include relatively trivial and vague examples from the Bible (The Jews would avenge the Edomites, or Jacob's broad and vague vision of the future) but deny highly specific prophecies of world-changing events in other cultures?So for my part this is one last chance. If your next post does not address the issue of the uniqueness in accuracy and scope of your claimed prophecies then I will not discuss any issue on this thread further with you.

Jerusalem was destoryed and they were exiled. The Jews were scattered worldwide. Israel would become a wasteland. It was for over 1900 years. The Jews would be persecuted worldwide. They were and still are in many places of the world today. The Bible is the most popular book ever. It was written by the Jews so they have made a world wide impact. The Jews returned to their ancient homeland and it says Israel would become green and bud and blossom. They are one of the top produce and agriculture traders. The enemies of Israel would surround them and they would be a cup of trembling. Israel is the main problem for the UN. They have been the only nation that has been brought back into their own land after centuries. Then there are the Messianic prophecies. Of course the prophecies about Israel are evident today. But about Christ: Where he would be born and where he would die. The very day he would ride into the temple which is celebrated as Palm Sunday. Then after his death he said Israel would be destroyed. The Romans took it captive in 70AD and renamed Israel Palestine. Then there are end time prophecies. Daniel said knowledge would increase. Only in this century have we had electricity, automobiles and sky scrapers. There has been an explosion of knowledge. From the internet to knowing the structure of a living cell. Then he said there would be the beginning of birth pains. Things like earthquakes, famine, and pestilence. Of course there have always been these things but they have increased greatly. The ozone layer is deteriorating. It says that men will be schorched with heat from the sun. By his pollution. There would be a one world system governed by a dictator. We see how the world is pushing for a cashless society and all would receive a mark. One world curency. Animals are receiving chip implants and there is a family in Florida that have received them. The world is pushing for a world religion. In 1986 in Italy 130 of the major world religions got together including Christians. The Lord said there will be false Christs and false teachers. There are false Christs all over and false teachers running all over. The world ruler(Antichrist) will make a 7 year peace agreement with Israel and they so desperately want peace. The Antichrist will let them rebuild the temple and they will start having sacrifices. They are preparing hundreds of Levite Jews to be priests for the temple. They have almost everything ready. They just need the temple. I'm not going to be dogmatic about a lot of these things but when I read the Bible and I see these things it fits.

I'm going to be honest I have not studied a lot of the non-biblical prophecies but I am interested in what they have to say. After we finish discussing Bible prophecy would you please be willing to mention at least 1 valid prophecy each from the religions you mentioned? I have done my part to type out what I believe about the Bible. If you would please do the same.