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Author Topic:   The Apocalyptic Beheaders
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 67 (303087)
04-11-2006 12:33 AM


There are numerous corroborating signs of fulfulled Biblical prophecy indicative of the last days of this age. We've covered a few of them. One which has not been discussed so far as I'm aware is the practice of execution by beheading.
According to Revelation 20:4, the primary mode of the execution of the latter day Christians during the period of the apocalyptic beast kingdom will be by beheading. This is significant because for a long time since firearms became abundant not much about beheading has been in the news. This was Muhammed's method of putting away folks he had eliminated for Allah, his god.
Now I read some alarming news from the Voice of the Martyrs that the president of Hopegivers International, the largest orphanage Christian benevolent organization in Northern India has been arrested and the operation shut down leaving thousands of orphans, lepers students and other of India's poor which Hopegivers International has sponsered to likely have to go to the streets and beg. Most of Hopegiver's support has been from Christian doners in the US. The Hindu militants (abe: in government) have also put out a bounty for the arrest of M.A. Thomas, founder of Hopegivers who is in hiding. They want him and his son Thomas, Hopegivers president beheaded, according to VOM. Having followed and lent support to the Hopegivers for a number of years, this is particularly alarming to me. I have met M.A Thomas and heard him speak here in the US on more than one occasion. Hopegivers has graduated thousands of their orpans from their schools, provided medical facilities for the sick, supported leper colonies, and much more for Northern India.
The Muslims and Hindus appear to want to make a statement by this bloody and grusome practice of beheading because they want to prevent (nonviolent) Christianity from sweeping their turf in India and the Muslim theocratic nations. The prophecies specify severe persecution to Christians before the 2nd advent of Jesus the Christ/Messian. This is the Great Tribulation which is prophesied to kill (abe: and otherwise persecute) most of the Christians of the apocalyptic latter days.
Of course, the hope of the resurrection as promised by God to his people is what causes Christians to be willing to take the punishment rather than to capitulate to the demands of the beheaders. It appears that this practice of beheading will escalate world wide as I understand the prophecies. It is also indicative of who will have the authority before Armageddon. Islam, being the fastest growing religion of all world wide appears to be the prominent emerging authority in the decades ahead. The implication is not good so far as the War On Terror goes, imo. This, again is just one more of the prophecies being fulfilled which appears to be corroborating the credibility of the Biblical record. My wife has gone to bed. I'll get a link on the Hopegivers matter from her later and edit it in. What do you think?
Probably Faith and Belief for this one and open to suggestions from other admins.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-11-2006 12:46 AM

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 67 (303398)
04-11-2006 11:58 PM


General Reply
Since most responses so far have been similar, this is my response:
Yes, there's been beheadings all along. The significance of the times we are in is that prior to our time, beheadings were so unusual that few notations of them were in the national media. Nearly a hundred million citizens were killed by their own Communist governments last century, but beheadings were few. Now the news is full of events relative to nations who practice this significantly, nations which are becoming the focus on the world scene and which appear to become more significant in the future.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by ReverendDG, posted 04-12-2006 1:15 AM Buzsaw has replied
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 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2006 2:38 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 67 (304329)
04-14-2006 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PaulK
04-12-2006 2:38 AM


Re: General Reply
PaulK writes:
Firstly Revelation 20:4 doesn't say when the people beheaded were killed. It could be read as implying that they were killed by the regime of the Beast - but if we take that reading then the modern beheadings have no special bearing on the matter - no mo re than ancient use of beheading. There is nothing that would require beheading to be common prior to the institution of that regime. If we assume that no particulsr time is meant then it could be talking about people beheaded hundreds of years earlier w hich would make modern beheadings even less significant.
Even if beheading was rare in the last few decades - and I would suspect that it was more the beheading of Westerners that was rare - nothing in the Bible says that beheading would become rare then common again.
So really there is nothing at all in this that could reasonably be considered a sign that the Apocalypse is coming. The more significant fact is that the argument is even made. The use of such a tenuous link is itself a clear indication that the claim made at the start of the OP is false. It is so obviusly clutching at straws that it would be ignored unless there were nothing better.
Hi Paul.
1. Where you and even a lot of evangelical prophecy buffs err is that the apocalypse has begun. The apocalypes is not an event that comes in a day, a month or even a year. It is an event that emerges beginning with the restoration of the nation of Israel as per the OT major and minor prophets and Jesus in his famous Olivet Discourse prophecy.
2. Most of the evangelical prophecy teachers err in trying to claim that the apocalyptic tribulation period is seven years. I challenge anyone to produce Biblical documentation for this doctrine. In the 20th century around a hundred million were executed by their own governments, mostly Communists who did not behead, but nevertheless murdered millions of Christians as well as others. That's tribulation beginning, but the worst is yet to come! There is more of that persecution going on, but apocalyptically, we are entering a transitional period.
Beheadings will emerge as the primary mode of execution!!
Providence's inspired prophet prophetically pronounced persecutoral proceedure pedicting predominant apocalyptic punishment practice.
Muhammed promoted it. Biblical prophets declared it for the time when Muhammed's religion would prevail. Unfortunately, the citizens of the free world are blind to the enormity of the greatest threat global freedom has ever encountered by a fanatic ideology who's theocratic totalitarian regimes instills into every youth from preschool on up the nobility of dying for their god, Allah in holy Jihad.
3. The heads of Westerners have already begun to fall. It's just the beginning. No pun intended, but hang onto your hats, folks! Save your heads by using them!
4. This is an area of prophecy where it is imperitive that students of it cross reference scripture with scripture. Again, sadly, evangelical prophecy greats fail in this respect. Revelation 20:4 must be understood by the information provided in both chapters 13 and 17 of the same book. The ten horned, seven headed beast of Rev. 13 is one and the same as the 10 horned, 7 headed beast of Rev. 17. Take a paper and outline all the info in these two chapters regarding this beast. You discover that it makes war with the saints i.e. all the true Christians and overcomes them This is the beginning of the greater intense period of the tribulation of the latter days. Note also in Rev. 17 that this beast confederation of 10 kings who rule as kings, implying that they may not be kings perse. (Abe: They rule) all citizens of the planet.
Having said the above, as per thread topic, Rev. 20:4 reveals that beheading will be the primary proceedure prevailing apocalyptically.
Edited out the "s" in "prophets," 4th paragraph.
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-14-2006 09:48 PM
This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-14-2006 09:54 PM

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by PaulK, posted 04-12-2006 2:38 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 10:19 PM Buzsaw has replied
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 Message 48 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-17-2006 1:41 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 67 (304474)
04-15-2006 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
04-14-2006 10:19 PM


Re: The Greatest threat facing the world today
Just another of Jar's groundless and undocumented pot shots at Biblical Christianity, contributing nothing to the thread topic.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 67 (304487)
04-15-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by PaulK
04-15-2006 2:14 AM


Re: General Reply
PaulK writes:
You claim that the Apocalypse has already begun but you can't find any signs of it. And even if it had begun it would not address my point.
1. Do you even know what the apocalypse is about? It's about the endtime events preceeding the 2nd advent of Jesus, messiah. As I said, the restoration of the nation of Israel after a long absense from the land is the primary event that must occur for the apocalypse to come. Severe persecution is another. How can you argue that I can't find any signs?
2. How can you say I haven't addressed your point. Your point question was about the time of Revelation 20. This is end time events. Israel's restoration is end time prophecy, as is severe persecution. You're missing my point about what we are to expect in the end time and my point that it is not something that suddenly appears, but is a gradual process. If you reject my answer, fine, but don't say I've ignored your point.
Paul writes:
Since you bring up the Olivet Discourse, you will remember that it is only Luke that mentions a return to Israel and he does not mark that as the start of the Apocalypse as you do. The siege of Jerusalem and the exile are also part of his Apocalypse - as the siege is part of Mark's and Matthew's Apocalypse.
1. Serious and studied students of Biblical prophecy understand that one reason for three accounts of this event was so that what was missed by one would be covered by the other. One mentioning is as good as three when inspired by God's Holy Spirit.
2. Serious and studied students of Biblical prophecy understand that the context of prophetic writers was what determined when the event was to happen. The stuff I cited is clearly implicated for latter day apocalyptic events. If you choose to disagree, fine. That's your perrogative. The context of the Olivet discourse clearly compared to history clearly shows that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple were not end time events, but something that would soon come to pass. This was to be followed by Gentile occupation of the land for a long period. Then Jesus says that there would come a time when Gentile occupation would end, corroborating OT prophetic predictions that Israel would again be restored as a nation. Of course I don't expect you to accept that. It would be too awfully much opposed to your preconceived views concerning the credibility of anything supportive of the Biblical record.
PaulK writes:
2) According to the Olivet Discourse the Tribulation starts with or even before the siege of Jerusalem. If you want to claim that anything special is going on now, you have nearly 2000 years of history to compare it to.
Tribulation is something that's always been in the world. There's only one great end time event pre-2nd advent tribulation described for the end time. Serious and studied students of prophecy understand that you need to closely examine the context of what is being addressed in order to determine time, et al. The Olivet discourse begins with events of the period and ends with events close to the 2nd advent of Jesus. Note the apostle's three part question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3: A. When shall these things be? (Concernng temple, et al) B. What shall be the sign of your coming? and C. What shall be at the end of the age? You folks demand science participants in science threads to debate science scientifially, yet are acting like anything goes here as to offering a credible argument. Serious students understand that the context reveals which was to be near at hand and which would apply to end time events.
PaulK writes:
Your idea that beheading will become the major mode of execution is simply speculation on your part. It isn't supported by the evidence you've produced
You're refusing to accept the evidence I've presented, that Islamic Jehadic world conquest is emerging. Many nations are solidly Islamic totalitarian theocratic regimes and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Beheading is the modus operandi of Islam. Beheading of Westerners by Islamics is becoming headline news. The Bible prophesied this for end time events. Go and figure.
PaulK writes:
3) The French Revolution executed many Westerners. So why is this case significant when it hasn't even resulted in one beheading yet ?
Strawman. The French Revolution was not apocalyptic. Israel was in no way in a state of restoration via return of Jews to the land.
PaulK writes:
4) There is nothing relevant in your point 4. The regime you talk about doesn't exist yet, nor do you identify anythign about it that allows us to say that it might plausibly exist in the near future.
It's all revelant. After you do the homework, get back and support your claim that it is not revelant.
PaulK writes:
2) The call for a single evangelist to be executed by beheading - because he has grossly offended Hindus - is strong evidence that beheading is going to become the major mode of execution in the near future.
You've offered nothing to explain how this makes any sense. Personally I very much doubt that the man will be executed in any fashion.e
This was just an aside matter pertaining to topic. The fact that the demands were being made by Hindu militants is significant, imo. Accept it or reject it for what it's worth. it was certainly not my Ace card regarding my point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by PaulK, posted 04-15-2006 2:14 AM PaulK has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 67 (304488)
04-15-2006 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by jar
04-15-2006 6:03 PM


Re: The Greatest threat facing the world today
jar writes:
I notice that it is always the Fundamentaloists that first suggest the most extreme forms of punishment, as in this case, you bring up beheading.
Not so. You can never document that NT Biblical Christian fundamentalists who follow the fundamentals and practices of the writers of the NT advocated extreme forms of punishment. These were all nonviolent. And deviants from these fundamentals WERE/ARE NOT NT BIBLICAL FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THIS INCLUDES THE POPES AND BISHOPS OF VATICAN CITY WHO PRACTICED VIOLENCE FOR CENTURIES. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT FACT OF HISTORY?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by jar, posted 04-15-2006 6:03 PM jar has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 26 of 67 (304519)
04-15-2006 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by jar
04-14-2006 10:19 PM


Re: The Greatest threat facing the world today
jar writes:
The Greatest threat facing the world today
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
are those Christians that think Revelations refers to some end time instead of events nearly 2000 years ago.
Jar, until you came along with this inflamitory stuff the thread was humming along quite well. Now you're derailing it into attacking fundamentalists necessitating nonviolent fundamentalists having to refute your nonsense. There happens to be all kinds fundamentalists of many faiths, some violent and others not. Please stop inflaming on fundamentalism and focus on substantive topic input about beheading relative to the apocalypse.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by jar, posted 04-14-2006 10:19 PM jar has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 67 (304522)
04-15-2006 10:56 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by ringo
04-12-2006 12:40 AM


Context Implication Clarifies
Ringo writes:
I think it's a mistake to put to much emphasis on the method of execution. I don't see anything in Revelation 20:4 to suggest that beheading would be the "primary" method - it's just a method that happened to be mentioned.
So it doesn't make much sense to try to link it to modern-day beheadings.
Hi Ringo. Thanks for being patient. If you pay close attention to the context of Rev 20:4, you find that the clear implication was that at the very least, the majority of those who did not worship the beast will have been beheaded. This corroborated by the information in the Revelation 13 info of the beast which states that the whole world was under the authority of the beast kingdom. This clearly implicates a large number of people. There are also other corroborating texts in Revelation implying that a very great number of martyrs will have been involved in the genocide of this apocalyptic period.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by ringo, posted 04-12-2006 12:40 AM ringo has replied

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 67 (304680)
04-17-2006 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by ReverendDG
04-12-2006 1:15 AM


Re: General Reply
RDG writes:
I think you might be right on one thing and wrong on another, i don't think there are more beheadings anymore than 20 years ago or 50 years ago. there is a lot more coverage of things of this nature than 20 years ago, as we become more of a globel society we will get more media looking into things that in the earlier years people didn't know a thing about.
you do know that that thier was a lot of beheadings in france right?, thats why the gilatine (sp) was invented.
Thanks for your patience, RDG.
I believe all beheadings of Westerners has gotten adequate coverage for the last fifty years. I believe the Stam missionaries to one of the Asian nations were beheaded and this was widely covered, for example. I think they were killed in China. That must have been about 50 years ago. The ones in the totalitarian Islamic theocracies, of course would not have been covered because most of them were done where reporters were not allowed. Now that we're involved in the region and the reporting is allowed, we see what happens to enemies of any of the Islamic factions. Ones captured are beheaded to intimidate others. They can't and don't want to hide those. But the persecution of their own citizens in their closed nations, they would not want known. Why? Because they want potential outsider converts in Europe and the West to think theirs is a peaceful religion. LOL on that! The persecution doesn't start until the nation is brought under totalitarian theocratic domination by violent ideologies.
I checked out the Stam beheadings and they were in 1934, so even back then at least the rare incidences of US beheadings were covered and likely any Westerner ones would have been. John and Betty Stam were beheaded by Chinese Communists along with some native Christians. I couldn't get the link to work that I used but google "Stam beheadings" and you get several links.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 67 (304681)
04-17-2006 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Brian
04-16-2006 5:42 AM


Re: Apocalyptic Christians are the Greatest Threat in the World Today.
Brian writes:
You do know that Christians worked very hard to get Israel back into Palestine becasue they thought they could help prophecy along a little?
To my knowledge Christians had little to do with Israel becoming a nation. Hitler did more than anyone else to effect that. The Jews had had it with Europe and Zionism was revived by that. After all, the orthodox devouts also had the prophecies and longed for the time of their fulfillment. Add to that that there was no better or safer place for them to go. It was, for the most part a desolate land ripe for the plucking by about anyone who might venture to develop it. Anyone could have went in and bought cheap, but who else even wanted it? Heck, the nomadic herdsmen who sold out cheap simply moved on to another desolate area. It wasn't a crowded densely populated place, so at the time there was plenty of space. The Israelis began moving in and it didn't take long for the Jews to begin development and irrigating. Then the ones who sold cheap scrub waste began waring to get what they sold out back by force after the Jews did all the work.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 67 (304719)
04-17-2006 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by Faith
04-17-2006 6:47 AM


Re: Christian Zionism
Faith writes:
In the early days of the Zionist movement Christians didn't believe the Jews would ever return to the land. If anything they fought the idea or at least scoffed at it. Christian Zionism is a very recent thing, based on seeing prophecy as an already-accomplished fact. Some small number of Christians started supporting it in the 30s and 40s I believe, but it didn't really take off until the 70s and 80s.
For the record, some of the more fundamentalist Christians of the 19th century did take the prophecies literally, including the restoration of the nation of Israel. Some place in my stuff I have some old books and pamphlets of the late 19th century documenting that. I'm not aware of any funding or monetary solitations for that purpose by them for that though.
I suppose it would be good to get back to topic as we're straying here.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 67 (304862)
04-17-2006 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
04-17-2006 9:57 AM


Re: Apocalyptic Christians are the Greatest Threat in the World Today.
I would agree with Faith. Last I heard the British government is not a Christian theocracy.
We're trying to get back to topic. If you want to argue your point why not open a new thread on it?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 67 (304863)
04-18-2006 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Dan Carroll
04-17-2006 1:41 PM


Re: General Reply
You're missing my point that with the emergence of Islam as a threat to world peace, you will likely see more beheadings. Time will tell. I'm contending that they are beginning to emerge in the news whereas, hardly anything significant about them has been aired for a long time. I'm more or less making a pediction based on the Bible. It's too early to know how that will turn out. I'm hoping I'm wrong, but doubt that that hope will be realized.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-17-2006 1:41 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 67 (304867)
04-18-2006 12:36 AM


Blogs Corroborate Bible
I suggest that interested folks do a google on "beheadings on increase." You get pages of blogs, et al of folks talking about this phenomena of the emergence of beheadings. So it's not just this babling boogyman buz being bothered about abundant beheading brutalities.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

Replies to this message:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 65 of 67 (305092)
04-18-2006 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by RickJB
04-18-2006 4:51 AM


Re: General Reply
rjb writes:
Secondly, your post appears to make the assumption that Islam is naturally violent whilst Christianity is naturally non-violent. The truth is that as much violence has been done in the name of Jesus as has been done in any religion, nost notably the Crusades.
The difference is that we're talking modern latter day stuff and that the violence related to the history of Vatican City was not sanctioned by the fundamentals of the New Testament whereas the violence of Jehad is sanctioned by the fundamentals of the Quran, the Hadith and the Saunas.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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