The Apocalyptic Beheaders

Just another of Jar's groundless and undocumented pot shots at Biblical Christianity, contributing nothing to the thread topic.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

Well there are a lot of them, jar, and how do you propose to deal with this Greatest Threat to the world? Beheading strike you as appropriate perhaps?I'm not completely convinced about the meaning of Revelation (singular, not plural), but I tend to be most attracted to the idea that it is to have multiple fulfillments over time, many already past, still at least one to come -- that is, many tribulations, many antichrists, many wars against the saints, with a Grand Finale at the very end. I don't know yet what I think of this particular prophecy about beheading, but certainly fundamental Islam is anti-Christian and practices beheadings of those it considers infidels and is a growing force in the world these days.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-15-2006 05:37 PM

I notice that it is always the Fundamentaloists that first suggest the most extreme forms of punishment, as in this case, you bring up beheading.No, the way to deal with them is to point out the utter absurdity of the position. It is to vividly show the consequences of their position so that all will know just how wrong it is. The answer, as so often the case is education. Educate the masses so that the masses know to ignore and marginalize such individuals.The threat from the apocalyptic crowd of fundies is that for the first time in human history they actually have the capability to bring about the physical worsts of Armageddon, but, as always, no control or understanding of the spiritual part or implications.In the past it was sufficient to simply ignore the nuts and cupcakes that believed in end-time prophecy, there was little any of them could do, even if in a position of power such as the President of the United States.In the past, such belief systems could be laughed off as somewhat humorous but non-threatening cults. Today though, we have reached a point where it is actually possible for such people to create a self-fulfilling prophecy, for them to actually destroy all life on earth.The problem is that there are three sides to any such belief. One is the human capability of action. The second is the spiritual aspects which are outside the control of any human. The third is the overwhelming power of self delusion.Before going on, I’d like to look at a couple examples of similar belief systems and the outcomes that resulted from their belief system.The first is what came to be known as “Heaven’s Gate.”Over the several decade history of the group Heaven’s Gate, the organization varied in size reaching a peak of about 1000 members which through attrition reduced to the final 39 members that committed suicide on March 27, 1997. Surprisingly, the mean age of the members was near 50, neither impressionable youth nor weary old age, but instead what many would consider to be the most hopeful and productive period in ones life.The basic belief system of the group was that their human existence was but temporary and that they actually belonged to some higher plane, a literal heaven. It was based on the belief that the two founding members were the two prophets described in Chapter 11 of Revelations. The group went through many stages, tried going public on several occasions, and eventually settled on a belief that the return of Hale-Bopp was a sign that a spacecraft would return and take them literally to heaven. The final act was one of joy it seems for the 39 people involved. They made video tapes leaving messages, seemed euphoric, were truly committed and sincere (one indication was that many of the male members had undergone castration in the past in support of the cults position requiring celibacy) and died by taking a large does of narcotics, then fixing plastic bags over their heads.We could safely deal with people like Charles Manson because, while quite destructive, he killed only a few people before being caught. Others like James Jones too were self limiting.BUT...when we see a President, and senior officials in areas of control, making decisions such as the current administration is making in regards to the Middle east and Iran, we can remain silent no longer. We cannot allow messages like those of the apocalytic crowd to go unchallenged. We must educate the masses so that the apocalytic nutcases are not allowed to bring on armegeddon.We canot allow their self-delususions to go unchallenged. We need to speak out forcefully and show to all that these people present a serious and immediate threat to mankind.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

1. Do you even know what the apocalypse is about? It's about the endtime events preceeding the 2nd advent of Jesus, messiah. As I said, the restoration of the nation of Israel after a long absense from the land is the primary event that must occur for the apocalypse to come. Severe persecution is another. How can you argue that I can't find any signs?2. How can you say I haven't addressed your point. Your point question was about the time of Revelation 20. This is end time events. Israel's restoration is end time prophecy, as is severe persecution. You're missing my point about what we are to expect in the end time and my point that it is not something that suddenly appears, but is a gradual process. If you reject my answer, fine, but don't say I've ignored your point. 1. Serious and studied students of Biblical prophecy understand that one reason for three accounts of this event was so that what was missed by one would be covered by the other. One mentioning is as good as three when inspired by God's Holy Spirit.2. Serious and studied students of Biblical prophecy understand that the context of prophetic writers was what determined when the event was to happen. The stuff I cited is clearly implicated for latter day apocalyptic events. If you choose to disagree, fine. That's your perrogative. The context of the Olivet discourse clearly compared to history clearly shows that the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple were not end time events, but something that would soon come to pass. This was to be followed by Gentile occupation of the land for a long period. Then Jesus says that there would come a time when Gentile occupation would end, corroborating OT prophetic predictions that Israel would again be restored as a nation. Of course I don't expect you to accept that. It would be too awfully much opposed to your preconceived views concerning the credibility of anything supportive of the Biblical record. Tribulation is something that's always been in the world. There's only one great end time event pre-2nd advent tribulation described for the end time. Serious and studied students of prophecy understand that you need to closely examine the context of what is being addressed in order to determine time, et al. The Olivet discourse begins with events of the period and ends with events close to the 2nd advent of Jesus. Note the apostle's three part question to Jesus in Matthew 24:3: A. When shall these things be? (Concernng temple, et al) B. What shall be the sign of your coming? and C. What shall be at the end of the age? You folks demand science participants in science threads to debate science scientifially, yet are acting like anything goes here as to offering a credible argument. Serious students understand that the context reveals which was to be near at hand and which would apply to end time events. You're refusing to accept the evidence I've presented, that Islamic Jehadic world conquest is emerging. Many nations are solidly Islamic totalitarian theocratic regimes and Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Beheading is the modus operandi of Islam. Beheading of Westerners by Islamics is becoming headline news. The Bible prophesied this for end time events. Go and figure. Strawman. The French Revolution was not apocalyptic. Israel was in no way in a state of restoration via return of Jews to the land. It's all revelant. After you do the homework, get back and support your claim that it is not revelant. This was just an aside matter pertaining to topic. The fact that the demands were being made by Hindu militants is significant, imo. Accept it or reject it for what it's worth. it was certainly not my Ace card regarding my point.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

Not so. You can never document that NT Biblical Christian fundamentalists who follow the fundamentals and practices of the writers of the NT advocated extreme forms of punishment. These were all nonviolent. And deviants from these fundamentals WERE/ARE NOT NT BIBLICAL FUNDAMENTALISTS AND THIS INCLUDES THE POPES AND BISHOPS OF VATICAN CITY WHO PRACTICED VIOLENCE FOR CENTURIES. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO RECOGNIZE THAT FACT OF HISTORY?

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

So Faith is not a Christian fundamentalist? Please see Message 17 where she made the above statement.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You are shrewd as a snake, aren't you, jar? I suggest that you might be interested in beheading Christians and based on that you pretend I'm in favor of beheading.This message has been edited by Faith, 04-15-2006 09:43 PM

Who said "Beheading strike you as appropriate perhaps?" It was in Message 17. Actually no, you didn't suggest that I might be interested in beheading Christians and I have NEVER suggested anything of the sort. You brought the subject of beheading up.What you said was, A classic tactic of the Christian Fundamentalist is making totally unsupported character attacks by projecting the methods they would themselves use on those who speak out against their intolerance.You suggested beheading.In case you have forgotten, my response to your attempted character assasination was Message 18.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Seems to me that calling Bible-inerrancy Christians the greatest threat facing the world today is Character Assassination Par Excellence, and it puts you in the camp with fundamental Muslims, who want to do away with us or enslave us, either one. The language is inflammatory at the very least. If you yourself would not propose such a remedy, you shouldn't call us the "greatest threat to the world" as that gives fuel to our enemies. Fundamental Islam DOES believe in beheading infidels.

Faith rants: Once again you use classic Christian Fundamentalist character assasination by implying that I ever said that I want to "do away with us or enslave us, either one."Our enemies are the Fundamentalist. It does not matter whether it is Islamic Fundamentalist or Christian Fundamentalists. There's no real difference. Not only that, Christians and Jews are not infidels under any form of Islam except, of course, Fundamentalists.But it's a valiant attempt to change the subject from where you recommended beheading folk as in Message 17 as opposed to what I actually said in Message 18.You continue to try to attribute violent methods to me when I have consistantly said that education is the solution, not violence. Simply shine a bright light on the intolerance and bigotry of the Christian Right, Christian Fundamentalist.I am not the one that ever suggests violence, instead, I suggest light, education. edited to chenge subtitleThis message has been edited by jar, 04-15-2006 09:39 PM

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jar, until you came along with this inflamitory stuff the thread was humming along quite well. Now you're derailing it into attacking fundamentalists necessitating nonviolent fundamentalists having to refute your nonsense. There happens to be all kinds fundamentalists of many faiths, some violent and others not. Please stop inflaming on fundamentalism and focus on substantive topic input about beheading relative to the apocalypse.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

Hi Ringo. Thanks for being patient. If you pay close attention to the context of Rev 20:4, you find that the clear implication was that at the very least, the majority of those who did not worship the beast will have been beheaded. This corroborated by the information in the Revelation 13 info of the beast which states that the whole world was under the authority of the beast kingdom. This clearly implicates a large number of people. There are also other corroborating texts in Revelation implying that a very great number of martyrs will have been involved in the genocide of this apocalyptic period.

---

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW

I did buz. Please look at Message 18 where I outline some of the reasons that those who accept the Apocalypse are the Greatest Threat to Mankind in History.The problem is that for the first time in history those who pervert Christianity with the vision of an Apocalypse to come actually have the means to bring about such madness. We need to point out that the belief in a coming Apocalypse is madness, insanity, and unsupported by anything even remotely related to Christianity. Instead it is but a path leading to death, just like Heaven's Gate or Helter Skelter but this time for all mankind.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Patience is my middle name. My point was that the beheading - i.e. the method of execution - is not necessarily significant. The writer mentioned a method that was known to his readers, but it could refer to any method of execution - hanging, firing squad, Zyklon B. I see no significance in beheading and certainly no reason to extrapolate it to the present.All in all, I have next to no interest in "the apocalypse" and I don't believe for a split second that we are currently in "the end times".Remember Hal Lindsey and The Late Great Planet Earth? He went to great lengths to show that the USSR was about to invade Israel "any minute now". William R. Goetz rehashed the same bunk in Apocalypse Next. That stuff went over big during the Cold War, but how likely does it seem today?Now the false prophets have set their sights on Islam. I suspect that in a few decades that will all change again. Plus a change, plus c’est la mme chose.

quote:

---

Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

---

quote:

---

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

---

---

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

That rings a bell. He wrote a couple of books, took the show on the road, videos? I suspect he milked it for a very nice income. But then I'm cynical.lfen