Conflict of interests

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I also find it really hard to get an atheist or agnostic to admit that there is no real external meaning/purpose to life without God.

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Well, no, an Athiest wouldn't say that there is an "external" purpose, but that doesn't mean that a purpose that one decides upon for oneself isn't "real".

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The thought is too depressing.

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...but it isn't depressing to non-believers at all.It is to you, but not to us.

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But, faith in gods/God does not ensure happiness, contentedness, better health, better relationships, etc., compared with not having faith, or being agnostic. In fact, there is good evidence that Athiests and Agnostics are happier in general and have better marriage relationship success that many Christian religious denominations.

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Religion isn't just about making your life better. If that was all it was about, then I don't think it would have lasted for as long as it has.I happen to think God really does exist, and I think it's a really sad thing when someone rejects Him.

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I did not shed my faith (I'm Agnostic) because of Evolution; I was raised a Catholic so there was never any conflict there.

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Ok.

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I am much more content, fulfilled, happy, loving and tolerant as a non-believer than I ever was as a believer.

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The assumption that those who believe are automatically happier or more fulfilled than non-believers is a baseless one.

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I don't make that assumption. In fact embracing religion can make someone's life a lot harder! People have this idea about Christianity that it's the easy religion to follow, and that's not really true.

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I understand what you are saying, and I do not condone what these Athiests have done, but I really do think that it's religious, particularly Christian, missionaries over many centuries which have done more to exploit vulnerability in individuals than the Athiests.

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Thanks for your opinion on that. You've given me a lot to think about here, which is good!

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My former best friend converted to Mormonism while we were roomates in college. At first, those nice, good-looking, kind, wholesome young men in suits were very reasonable, talking about God, and love, and fellowship, and family.

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Then, right before she was going to be baptized, my friend came to me, sobbing, because she just learned that none of here non-Mormon friends would be in heaven with her. She would be separated from her beloved grandparents, parents, and me, for eternity. I asked her why any god that loved her would force her to spend eternity apart from the people she loved the most? This got no response, and she went ahead and became a Mormon.

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Yuck. I'm sorry to hear that. If I were her, I'd be crying even harder about the fact they apparently believe that women will have babies for all eternity while men get their own planets according to that strange religion.

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Fast forward a few years, and she finds a nice Mormon man to marry. Guess what? None of her family is Mormon, so they are not allowed to attend the ceremony. They get to go to the reception.

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That's just awful. At least they got to go to the reception though. I think there are some cults that don't even allow contact with non-believing family members at all.

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The Mormons say they are all about "family", but what they really mean is "the only kind of family worth anything to Mormons is other Mormons."

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Anyway, I consider the Mormon Church, and other Christian sects, to be aggressively predatory towards young, vulnerable people in transitionary life stages.

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I really do not see, and never have seen, on any level, in any place, any comparable Athiest effort to recruit people.

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Ever go to a university?

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Perhaps you have come across some in your internet travels, but the big difference there is that you can turn off the computer, or just ignore the poster.

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If you're sincerely wanting to have a dialogue, you won't just turn it off.

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It's much harder to ignore a real, friendly person, especially when you are lonely.

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True.

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Have you had them knocking on your door, or do you walk by three or four of them on your way to every single class, or to work?

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I don't know, I don't go around polling people's religion or lack thereof, but I know what you mean.

Try to understand it from our point of view as well. I actually feel sorry for people like you, forever trapped in a delusional state of mind.

i don't think he does, actually. god knows he exists. i think that in this stage of our evolution, it is better to be at a distance from god. it's like a mother teaching her child to walk. at some point, she has to stop carrying it. i got in argument with mike the wiz one time on here. he asserted that athiests were just afraid of the god of the bible. and so i listed a few things about the god of the bible that would turn off an athiest to christianity or judaism. things like: killing millions of innocent children, lying, jealousy, punishing children for their parents' sins, etc. poor mike went nuts, and called me a blasphemer. i had to point out that everything i posted was directly from the bible, and only the first 5 books of it.some of that stuff that casts god in a bad light really is in the bible.however, i think evil is the wrong word. god creates and defines good and evil. calling god good or calling god evil are both pretty silly. we're putting our own moral framework onto a god beyond our understanding. i find creationism especially offensive for a similar reason: it binds god by a universe the creationist made up. as a former athiest, this statement is still wrong. disbelief in god may or may not be a belief depending on the person, but in no way is it ever a system. religion is a system; athiests are no unified.or, at least they never let me come to meetings. this one got a lot of attention. but i have a different reply. as an athiest, and even as a christian, i found the idea that purpose and meaning in life can only be found through serving the invisible man in the sky far too depressing.if you're called to service, that's cool and everything, but there can be meaning to life without god. that's what makes faith special, we don't need it.

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i find creationism especially offensive for a similar reason: it binds god by a universe the creationist made up.

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Before i start, i want to say that creationists do not believe blindly, desperately trying to prove a God. They stand proud because their hearts believe logically, & rationally in the evidence of God, the evidence of the Bible, & the evidence of science. Even if you dont believe in what creation science teaches, or are against creation/creationists, then its just fair that you yourselves realise that no matter how right you think you are. Theres always other opinions, & i hear so often how evolutionary humanistic philosophy, is the rational way of thinking. Its pretty much taken over society (secular humanism). Anyway, to my reply... The reason we even decided to chase a literal genesis, is because we are reading the Bible, and interpreting it, in what it meant to the original readers. What genesis meant, how God intended for the text to be interpreted, what it meant to the Jews, & early church fathers. And heres what we found...In the beginning (Heb. Bereshit) marks the absolute beginning of the temporal and material world. The traditional jewish and christian belief is that Genesis 1:1 declares that God created the original heaven and earth from nothing (Lat. ex nihilo), and that verse 2 clarifies that when it came from the Creators hand, the mass was "without form , and void", unformed and without any life. There is no evidence in the Hebrew text for long ages of evolutionary development or a gap time between verse 1 & verse 2. "God" (Heb. Elohim), this form of the divine name occurs 2,570 times in the OT. The plural ending "im" indicates a plural of majesty and takes a singular verb. "Created" (Heb Bara), this verb is used exclusively with God as its subject. It refers to the instananeous and miraculous act of God by which He brought the universe into existence. Thus, the Genesis account of Creation refutes atheism, pantheism, polytheism & evolution."Without form, and void" (Heb. tohu wabohu, 'unformed and unfilled'). Describes the condition of earth after the initial act of creation. It does not describe a chaotic condition as a result of judgement. Thus "was" (Heb. hayetah) is correct and should not be translated "became". "The spirit of God" is a clear reference to the creative activity of the Holy Spirit. John 1:3 indicates that Christ created all things with the father thus all 3 persons of the Trinity are active in the Creation. This undoubtedly accounts for the plural pronouns "us" and "our" in verse 26 (genesis) which take singular verbs in expressing the tri-unity of God.Verse 1:3 says 'And God said'. This is the first highly structured series of succinct and formulaic sentences expressing the creative commands of God. Thus, creation is accomplished by his word. Each command consists of (1. an announcement, "God said" (2. a creative command, "Let there be" (3. a summary word of accomplishment, "And it was so" (4. a descriptive word of accomplisment, "The earth brought forth" (5. a descriptive blessing, "God blessed" (6. an evaluative approval, "It was good" & (7. a concluding framework, numbering each day. Simultaneously giving mankind a 'temporal' framework (Exodus 20:11)Thats as far as i can go today, in studying Genesis. But you can now see the framework creation builds itself on. What Gods word says and can we trust in it or not. The world which of course wants independence from God and doesnt want to live under 'his rules' have put God out of society. Thats probably a different topic discussion altogether. In a nutshell, creationists havent made up any sort of 'recent theory'. That would be evolution. Creation has been fact since the beginning premeval history, & Israel. Regardless of who believed in Elohim or not (1 Samuel 4:7-8).

Hi Rubystars (and Schrafinator if you're following this).When I went to University in England in the late '70s the Atheists were all far too busy getting drunk and trying to get laid to bother even thinking about trying to recruit people.At my Uni the Christians were one of only two groups of people who were banned from going door to door in the Halls of Residence (the other was insurance salesman). Both were banned for the same reason, namely their bad track record of exploting vunerable first year students. Interestingly the Christians - or at least one group of them - had come up with a way to try and get round this. Before I even went to Uni I received a personal letter from a student who was already there (this was before the days of laser printers that could write in human script - at least for the general public, so it really was an individual letter). I don't remember much of the content but the tone was "you will be alone and lost when you leave home, so come and see me and I'll help you". Once I got there and met people/made friends it turned out everbody had been sent a similar letter. Later in my first year I was on the train on the way back after going home for the Easter break when someone who I knew by sight from my Hall of Residence got on and came and sat next to me. Without any sort of casual conversation or preamble he started trying to convince me I should be a Christian.In my experience the only time I can remember Atheists trying to "convert" Christians in normal everyday life has been in response to the Christians trying it the other way.One of the most disgusting things I have ever seen was when I was in the respiratory ward at a hospital (I suffer from a chronic lung condition). The guy in the next bed was in a terrible state - in fact he died not long after the incident I am about to describe. Just after visiting hours had finished two people in their mid-20s showed up at the nurse station and asked to see this guy. They said they were friends of his through his son who went to their Church. I don't if you've ever seen anybody dying of a lung compaint, but the level of suffering is terrible - unable to breath, lungs filling up with fluid which you can't clear, fever, pain and so on. They came and sat next to this man who was, quite literally, on his death bed, and their opening words to him were "Have you accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as you pesonal saviour ?". In the entire time they were with him they were pressurising him to convert. There was not a single word of care or concern, or expression of sympathy.I understand that Christianity is a proselytising (sp ?) religion, but I found what was basically an attempt to bully someone who was suffering in terrible pain and close to death to convert to your own personal faith repugnant. Any excuse about trying to save somebody's soul is just that - an excuse.I just remembered one other incident from my University days which my friends and I found amusing, although the Christians among you may not. Somebody who was a final year student when I was in my first year was a well known miser - if something was free he'd do anything to get it. He was also know for his slightly bizarre sense of humour. The Christians used to hold "come and meet us and see what Jesus has to offer in your life" type meetings where there was free coffee and biscuits (cookies to you ). For reasons known only to himself on one occassion he decided to stand in the corner, raise his arms out straight into the crucixion position and say in a loud voice "What a way to spend Easter". Apparently the looks on the faces of the Christians were priceless.

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Confused ? You will be...

I did. At Gustavus Adolphus College, there were at least twenty or so student groups with the charter to bring people to Christ.There were absolutely no atheists groups, of any kind, whatsoever. The closest there was was when a friend of mind banded together the Buddists, Muslims, atheists, Jews, and folks of every non-Christian creed to form the "Alternative Religions Society".Here at Mizzou the situation seems comparable; there are actual organizations for all the major faith groups, many, many Christian outreach/ministry programs; and no atheist groups whatsoever.Oh, of course, many people become atheist at university; that's usually as a result of their education contradicting their closeted, blindered religious biases. In other words, the transition to atheism is usually something that you do on your own because your previous faith fails to sync with reality, not because some group brought you over for Atheist conversion. Usually your first days as an atheist are pretty lonely until you find more people of the same pursuasion.But there are no atheist recruitment groups at any university that I have attended. Contrast that to the vast proliferation of Christian ministry organizations.

Having been enrolled in three and having worked at one, I've seen highly prominent Christian recruitment drives at all of them (this fall I couldn't walk 10 feet on Campus without having a "Jews for Jesus" flier stuffed in my face, and pairs of well-groomed Mormons have long been a constant part of the background scenery), and have never seen anything remotely comparable for an atheist viewpoint. While those radio stations I listen to on long trips through rural areas like to talk about the "Atheists and Marxists" at non-Christian Universities, you have to search for a trace of either.

I dunno how strange that is. Isn't that pretty much the situation now?

Ruby - I do agree, and have had similar experiences. I became a Born Again believer type in my late teens, and stopped believing in my late 20’s. The reason I turned to the Dark Side is because I was challenged by a non believer to actually read about the subject matter I was disputing, namely evolution.
I read Origin and some other contemporary books, and although I did not have a total understanding of this complex issue, I did learn that evolution did not in any way discount the existence of God.
Slowly, I made the pilgrimage to Theistic Evolutionist, and then eventually I became Agnostic, then Atheist. I learned to, as you put it, to question everything I used to (and still did/do) believe. It was most beneficial.
Now, throughout these transitions, I was never sad or regretful that I had lost something; rather, I was unhappy as a Christian (that had a great deal to do with the company I kept and things I used to believe; (was on the fringe in that I believed in SRA, MPD. The whole Bob Larson, Frank Peretti and Mike Warnke crowd)) and discovered that I was incredibly happy and fulfilled as a non believer.
A few months ago, something happened to me that rekindled my belief. I won’t bore you with the details, and they will probably not make any sense anyway.
Some users on this board have been instrumental in helping me believe again; Jar, Truth Lover, Arachnophilia to name a few.

Well I've been to college for two years and maybe the pressure was put on me differently than it was on some other people, but I noticed that almost every professor I had tried to drag Christianity through the mud.

Welcome back Monkey Boy. I hope you'll find as I have that faith ends up being stronger once it's been challenged.

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Religion isn't just about making your life better. If that was all it was about, then I don't think it would have lasted for as long as it has.

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Well, religion is also about effective conveyance of cultural mores to large numbers of people, as well as being about very effective control of the behavior of large numbers of people.It's a very effective self-perpetuating social control institution, and that's the biggest reason it has lasted as long as it has.However, anything that anybody has ever done, at any time in history, pretty much has to pass the "WIIFM" test."What's In It For Me"?People don't do anything unless they get something out of it, real or imagined, or hoped for.If religion isn't about living a better life, what is it for?

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I happen to think God really does exist, and I think it's a really sad thing when someone rejects Him.

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Well, OK, but why?Why is it important to believe in God?

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I don't make that assumption. In fact embracing religion can make someone's life a lot harder! People have this idea about Christianity that it's the easy religion to follow, and that's not really true.

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Hmm, well, Christianity might be "easy to follow" or it might not be, but the point I was making was about belief in God/the supernatural vs. non-belief or Agnosticism.

Yep, yep, yep.Tons of Christians and Mormons on college campuses everywhere, preying upon lonely, stressed kids.Honestly, I have lived in or on 5 different college campuses for the past 14 years.I have never once experienced or heard of anyone being approached by an Athiest looking to convert me, never seen any notices for any Athiest, Agnostic, Freethought, or skeptic groups, etc.I have been approached many, many times over the years by Christians, and it's been going on my whole life as people came door to door. There are always "Campus Crusade For Christ" meetings being advertised currently, and that group even sponsors Creationist speakers.