Too Many Flaws with Evolution

As a Christian I will always remain in my belief in pure Creation. The Scripture says that God created the Heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Even those who think God created the ameoba and went on from there have yet not fathomed the awesome power that God has. He can do anything, I see His work and wonders everyday. I see more being revealed that He has not told us til the end day. Evolution has been so flawed and fabricated that this gives no hope to an individual. God said to Moses in such simple terms for us to understand that those that think they are so wise won't accept such an easily built plan. God made this Universe and all that is in it in 6 days, 144 hours, 8640 minutes. Is this so hard to understand?

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Originally posted by ringostore:
As a Christian I will always remain in my belief in pure Creation. The Scripture says that God created the Heavens and the earth in 6 days and rested on the seventh. Even those who think God created the ameoba and went on from there have yet not fathomed the awesome power that God has. He can do anything, I see His work and wonders everyday.

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JM: apparently you don't really believe what you say. You claim God could not create via evolution despite giving us evidence for evolution. That's your perogative, but don't claim an 'all wonderful, all powerful' God in one breath and then limit said God in the next!CheersJoe MeertEdited by Adminnemooseus, : Way later, I fix some code.

What evidence Joe? Every piece of evidence has either only been shown as a theory, made fact then embarrassingly shown as a fallacy.
Sure, there are many theories that still remain a puzzle and Creationists are left wondering, but as a patient Christian who prays for patience and wisdom, I let time tell the story. God will reveal all in a matter of time. This only makes my faith stronger.

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Originally posted by ringostore:
What evidence Joe? Every piece of evidence has either only been shown as a theory, made fact then embarrassingly shown as a fallacy.
Sure, there are many theories that still remain a puzzle and Creationists are left wondering, but as a patient Christian who prays for patience and wisdom, I let time tell the story. God will reveal all in a matter of time. This only makes my faith stronger.

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JM: Actually, you are proof of evolution since you are not an identical copy of your ancestors. Let's get to the more important point. Why is it that you decide what your God is capable of?CheersJoe Meert

As a Christian, there are only 2 types of people, those that believe and those that don't. What we are made of is only a mere clump of cells, flesh that wants to follow the world. However that clump of cells is operated by a Master Control. It can operate only by the direction of One.I don't decide or limit God in what He can do. In fact I'm praising Him for what He did do! Evolutionist/Creation people limit God to just making a small design taking millions of years to build an image of Himself. Now thats degrading! Not a very powerful God if you believe that.

Joe, Exodus tells us that 'the heavens and earth were created in six days'. We have 100 good reasons to believe this is the testimony of the one true God becasue of the incredible correlations of scriptual themes from Genesis to Revelation - not to mention our own personal experiences that are also consistent with the Bible.

Excellent TB!We know as Christians that Christ was there in the beginning of Creation. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three in One. God came down in human form to walk among us 2000 years ago, so again I scoff at the thought that He came as a monkey taking millions of years to die on a cross for us.

^ It's nice to agree with someone around here ringo. Prov 8 talks about Father and Son working as "craftsmen together" on the earth and mankind.

I also like how the very title of your post is "too many flaws with Evolution" and then you barely touch the subject of Evolution in your post. Bravo!There isn't 100% pure scientific proof for Evolution, so you latch onto the "happy, wouldn't it be nice" solution of a benevolent Christian God.Why does the Christian God seem to have so many HUMAN characteristics (desire to be worshipped and glorified, subject to human emotions)?No benevolent omnipotent being would allow all the crap that happens in this world. Yes, it's a staple argument, but still stands.I could never agree with a religion where a person with a heart of gold that doesn't accept the story of Jesus or better yet has never been exposed to Christianity is not granted passage to this "Heaven" while a serial killer who's been saved is.Not to mention all the things regarding Earth's history not mentioned in the Bible, the common scientific evidence that conflicts with the Bible, mankind's tendency to create religions and mythologies in the absence of fact and truth.Sorry if I sound harsh... I really would like to believe in a benevolent higher power... that something is watching over me and that a joyous eternal life awaits for me... but science, rationalism, and just plain old gut feeling points in a different direction. Which is unfortunate, for in those dire situations where the faithful draw strength from their religion, I can only hope things turn out good.

Acts 17 (see vs 30 in particular) is teaching us that the gospel of Christ has been accessible to every human on earth during every age:

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26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.' 29"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone--an image made by man's design and skill. 30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.
Acts 17:26-30

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God actually looks at the heart and even accepted pagan idolatory in the past. It was only over zealous evangelists who, concentrating on their own call in the western world, saw this too narrowly (and obviously never carefully read Acts 17 which is the chapter on evangelism!).The gist of the passage is that whether we are living in a western metropolis or a bronze age village we can find God 'in whom we live and breathe nad find our being'. He is not far away. In fact maybe those hints of conscience we feel are his still small voice.

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[This message has been edited by Tranquility Base, 06-27-2002]

I can see how one might personify the good in man and call it God. However, that's a far cry from Christianity and the story of Jesus the savior dying on the cross for man's sins.Quoting from the Bible really doesn't fly with me, I'm not Christian and do not believe the Bible's words as Christian's do. Even then so, no matter what the Bible says, I don't see how an isolated Pacific Islander that grows up in the South Pacific, raised in an idol-worshipping society, will "get his chance" at Heaven. But hey, if some death row inmate who murdered a family in cold blood repents and gets saved, he's got his reservation all set. Maybe he'll see his victims too.

I will wait in case there are objections, but otherwise I will move this thread to the Faith and Belief forum later today.--------------------EvC Forum Administrator

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Originally posted by ringostore:

As a Christian, there are only 2 types of people, those that believe and those that don't.

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That’s patently inaccurate. Please explain why Christians felt the need to break up into over 100 fragmented denominations in the U.S. Alone !
It appears that ‘believing’ is only the start. Christians must then decide HOW they believe... and there’s quite a menu from which to choose. Some denominations have declared that the other Christian ‘cults’ are blasphemers and are hell bound simply because music was played during a Sunday service !
There are more than just 2 types of people but I can understand how simple models appeal to a simple mind set. [b] [QUOTE] What we are made of is only a mere clump of cells, flesh that wants to follow the world. However that clump of cells is operated by a Master Control. It can operate only by the direction of One.
[/b][/QUOTE]I must be nuts for asking butdo you care to support this assertion with something factual ?
If I opposed your claim with:
Our Flesh can only operate by the direction of a PEZ dispenser
you’d expect some sort of validation. [b] [QUOTE] I don't decide or limit God in what He can do. In fact I'm praising Him for what He did do!
[/b][/QUOTE]Excuse me, were you there ? Did you see, first hand these events unfold ?
I thought not due to your earlier claim:

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Originally posted by ringostore:
The Scripture says that God created the Heavens and the earth in 6 days

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So you’re relying on Scripture to KNOW the mind on God ? Let me rephrase that —
You are relying upon unsubstantiated hearsay, that was translated and retranslated countless times to know the mind of God. Gee I’d like to believe you, as you believed all the primitive men who wrote the Biblebut I don’t know you. You could be nuts.
I’ll just do as the ancient Hebrews did THEMSELVES;
I will interpret the world as it is revealed to menot as it is suggested by you. [b] [QUOTE] Evolutionist/Creation people limit God to just making a small design taking millions of years to build an image of Himself.
[/b][/QUOTE]Don’t you think its quite arrogant to presume humanity is SO important that we MUST look like a God ? Your theology doesn’t work well for those of us who are humbly human. I could NEVER presume such importance. [b] [QUOTE] Now thats degrading!
[/b][/QUOTE]Degrading to Whom ? Is it degrading to God when we presume to look like Him ?
How are you so sure that what YOU find degrading wouldn’t even rate a blink from God ?
Aren’t you applying YOUR standards to God now ? Does He have the same fragile emotions as we do ?
Consider this: if an ant walks up to you, and thinks Yeech! What an ugly, smelly tetrapod ! EVEN if you had a way to determine what the ant was thinkingwould it really bother you ?
Is this a thing of great impact ? [b] [QUOTE] Not a very powerful God if you believe that.
[/b][/QUOTE]Not very a powerful God if you accept the Bible as true. Not a very smart God either.
Or perhaps that’s just the limitations of the ancient Hebrews ability to portray God- that is weak ?
If you understood the immensity of the Universe, wouldn’t you wonder why creating the earth took 6 days and to create the rest of the entire universe took less than 1 ?
So Either God is weak or stupidor the Bible is wrong.
Hhhhmmm.Which way shall I choose..
Yup. I gotta side with God on this one.

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Originally posted by ringostore:

We know as Christians that Christ was there in the beginning of Creation. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three in One. God came down in human form to walk among us 2000 years ago, so again I scoff at the thought that He came as a monkey taking millions of years to die on a cross for us.

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And Rightly so !
I don’t recall reading scripture that Jesus was a monkey. Did you just make that up ? Was there a valid point anywhere near this comment ?
Why would it take millions of years to die on a cross ? I understand Jesus was in his early thirties when he died.
Do you normally portray science as a ridiculous parody of itself before you can oppose it ?
Shouldn’t THAT tell you something ?
But speaking of Scoffing[ and all this belongs in another thread ]
why would God [ Yahweh ] sacrifice Himself [ Jesus ] to Himself [ Yahweh ] for the imperfections of men — which were the result of His [ Yahweh’s ] creation ??
Why would He punish us for HIS mistakes ?One has to decommission their logic to believe such lunacy.
But it’s a free country. Knock yourself out.regards,jeff------------------
"Freedom of Religion" equates to Freedom -FROM- those religions we find unbelievable.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

That’s patently inaccurate. Please explain why Christians felt the need to break up into over 100 fragmented denominations in the U.S. Alone !

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No we are inaccurate Jeff. We are in a imperfect body thus with temptation and our own desires we make imperfect truth. You will find that most of those denominations are on very common ground with the Christian faith. More are coming to together in fellowship learning the Truth. There are only a mere few that started with blasphemy and heresy and continue today. As Jesus said, "Everything shall pass away, but what I say will not"

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Originally posted by Jeff:

I must be nuts for asking butdo you care to support this assertion with something factual ?
If I opposed your claim with:
Our Flesh can only operate by the direction of a PEZ dispenser
you’d expect some sort of validation.

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PEZ? Unless your vanity is oh so sugar coated......just kidding Jeff.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

Did you see, first hand these events unfold ?

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I see it each and everyday! If one is patient we will see the incredible "good" that is created out of tragedy.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

So you’re relying on Scripture to KNOW the mind on God ? Let me rephrase that —
You are relying upon unsubstantiated hearsay, that was translated and retranslated countless times to know the mind of God. Gee I’d like to believe you, as you believed all the primitive men who wrote the Biblebut I don’t know you. You could be nuts.
I’ll just do as the ancient Hebrews did THEMSELVES;
I will interpret the world as it is revealed to menot as it is suggested by you.

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Know the details of God's mind? Jeff, you don't want to know all what is to be revealed, at least not yet. There is a side of God, an angry God that we do not want to see.Translated over and over again? Translated yes, but with the same meaning. Check the bible references sites, there are countless translations but they intend the same meaning and Truth.Suggested by me? Ok, it is suggested by me, however inspired by the Holy Spirit.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

Don’t you think its quite arrogant to presume humanity is SO important that we MUST look like a God ?

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Christ was there in the beginning, He is the Word. If God came down from Heaven and was made man, then obviously He made Himself to look like us. Thus He created us in His Own image.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

Degrading to Whom ? Is it degrading to God when we presume to look like Him ?
How are you so sure that what YOU find degrading wouldn’t even rate a blink from God ?
Aren’t you applying YOUR standards to God now ? Does He have the same fragile emotions as we do ?
Consider this: if an ant walks up to you, and thinks Yeech! What an ugly, smelly tetrapod ! EVEN if you had a way to determine what the ant was thinkingwould it really bother you ?
Is this a thing of great impact ?

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Degrading to whom? Degrading to God. By saying He is so limited that He has to create something and it takes millions of years to develop into what He wants. That's making Him semi-powerful.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

Or perhaps that’s just the limitations of the ancient Hebrews ability to portray God- that is weak ?
If you understood the immensity of the Universe, wouldn’t you wonder why creating the earth took 6 days and to create the rest of the entire universe took less than 1 ?
So Either God is weak or stupidor the Bible is wrong.
Hhhhmmm.Which way shall I choose..
Yup. I gotta side with God on this one.

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The Hebrews or one Hebrew, Moses, wrote down what God had told him. How is that so hard for you to understand? Also God built this universe and all that is in it in 6 days. Wow! Pretty impressive, I hope you do side with God on this.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

And Rightly so !
I don’t recall reading scripture that Jesus was a monkey. Did you just make that up ? Was there a valid point anywhere near this comment ?

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Yes I did! Thank you. If Christ came in human form into a world of sin, then to a evolutionist point of view, He should have developed slowly meeting all the different levels of monkeys. But this is pure fantasy. Jesus was born as a baby just like you and me, and there was no mention of ancient man with monkey features.

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Originally posted by Jeff:

why would God [ Yahweh ] sacrifice Himself [ Jesus ] to Himself [ Yahweh ] for the imperfections of men — which were the result of His [ Yahweh’s ] creation ??
Why would He punish us for HIS mistakes ?

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One has to decommission their logic to believe such lunacy.
But it’s a free country. Knock yourself out.

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And we come to this interesting statement of yours Jeff. You are knocking yourself out of Heaven because you don't understand why God had this plan. Ever since the fall of Adam, the world was full of sin and He promised Abraham and all his decendants that He will send a Messiah to save us from this destruction of sin. When Jesus came and died for us, He did it because He has an overwhelming love for us!
He wants to save us. With our own worldly desires and passion we did it to ourselves and God saw that this was not good. So He came and died for us so that we may live. We don't die like you say Jeff, if your a Christian, a funeral isn't to a grief, but a celebration. We will go on to something so much greater.

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Originally posted by ringostore:

And we come to this interesting statement of yours Jeff. You are knocking yourself out of Heaven because you don't understand why God had this plan. Ever since the fall of Adam, the world was full of sin and He promised Abraham and all his decendants that He will send a Messiah to save us from this destruction of sin. When Jesus came and died for us, He did it because He has an overwhelming love for us!
He wants to save us. With our own worldly desires and passion we did it to ourselves and God saw that this was not good. So He came and died for us so that we may live. We don't die like you say Jeff, if your a Christian, a funeral isn't to a grief, but a celebration. We will go on to something so much greater.

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That's an awfully nice sermon, but are you actually going to discuss any of the so-called "flaws of Evolution" that you claim exist?

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Jesus was born as a baby just like you and me, and there was no mention of ancient man with monkey features.

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But all humans have monkey features because we are all primates. We are very, very similar, anatomically.On the other hand, I think you are repeating a (somewhat garbled and confused) version of the oldy but moldy Creationist chestnut, "If humans evolves from monkeys, why are there still monkeys around?"1) Humans didn't evolve from monkeys. Humans and other great apes share a common ancestor.2) Just because two or more species are closely-related evolutionarily doesn't mean that the "parent" species which gave rise to the "offshoot" species myst go extinct. The story of evolving life is a branching tree, not a linear ladder.Perhaps you might learn a bit about Evolutionary Biology before attempting to say that it is impossible or doesn't occur. It's clear that you don't know the first thing about the field, yet in your combined ignorance and arrogance, you feel perfectly comfortable criticizing it and making claims.I wish I could say that this is a rare attitude among Creationists, but I unfortunately cannot.Here are some informative sites that you might want to learn from...if you are interested in learning, that is: http://www.csicop.org/youngskeptics/education/resources/sciencedef.html
http://www.skepdic.com/science.html
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/topics/Bible-Science/Wiens.html
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Temple/9917/evolution/evolution-for-beginners.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-qa.html------------------
"We will still have perfect freedom to hold contrary views of our own, but to simply
close our minds to the knowledge painstakingly accumulated by hundreds of thousands
of scientists over long centuries is to deliberately decide to be ignorant and narrow-
minded."-Steve Allen, from "Dumbth"