What led you to God?

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If life didn't matter, then why would we live? Or want to live?

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1) For those who come after us.2) For the joy of it.

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It would be finite, and the effects that you have worked for to happen, would EVENTUALLY be in vain.

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Pretend for a minute that there is no afterlife.Was Ghandi's life lived in vain?Was Dr. King's?What about Jesus' life? Even if Jesus was just some wandering preacher who had faith in the God of Abraham but was just wrong about there being a God and and afterlife.Is what he did and said meaningless and insignificant because there is no afterlife, or did what he did and said change the course of the entire world's history in deep and profound ways?

I was brought up Catholic and was even the president of our Deanary (a large collection of Catholic Youth Organizations) in high school. I was even given the "Eagle of the Cross" by Bishop Bosco. I think Bishop Bosco would be quite disappointed in me now!I don't exactly know when I stopped believing in a Christian god, but I remember a time when I went through this "all religions lead to the same god" phase. The dilution of my faith, I guess, just kept going until it was just water.I don't believe there is a Christian god for many reasons (I sure I and others can come up with more)--idea is self-contradictory, religion is just an easy way to control people or provide a sense of belonging/community, the stories in the Bible are just made up and/or co-opted from other stories, there is no evidence for a god, and that there are always better naturalistic explanations for whatever phenomena is attributed to the supernatural.The last two reasons lead me to believe that either there is no supreme being (Christian or otherwise) or that any supernatural entity is inconsequent to my existence. Besides, any argument that I have heard for the existence of a god is either question-begging or relies on someone's subjective viewpoint. Maybe a god does exist, but if he/she/it does exist, his/her/its existence doesn't matter.

Robin seems to be saying that a car has purpose, but a person does not have purpose.If we look at a car, we can give an entirely mechanical description of how that car behaves. The behavior is fully explained by the action of its mechanical components. We can explain the behavior of the car without any reference to purpose.If I try to explain the behavior of a person, say robin, I cannot do so with a mechanical account. What mechanical explanation is there for the message to which I am responding? What mechanical explanation could there be for robin's often somewhat poetic writing style? The only kind of explanation we can give for robin's behavior is in terms of purpose. That is, we can only explain his behavior in terms of his carrying out one or more purposes.It's that way for just about everything we see. Mechanical system can be given mechanical descriptions. But some systems defy a mechanical account, and require explanation as purposeful behavior. And it is only in biological systems that we see such purposeful behavior. Among biological system, humans probably exhibit purposeful behavior more than any other system.Robin says that a car has purpose, but that a human does not have purpose. Is robin saying that on purpose, and for what purpose is he saying it?

Robin,This question is entirely optional and it's fine by me if you ignore it altogether, but I'm wondering if you have children?lfen

The question isn't "Do we have purposes." Haven't we all agreed that we do? The question is whether we have Purpose with a capital P. Whether we were MADE for something. Humanity as such I mean. Whether humanity as such has a Purpose.Individually we all have purposes in the plural. Including the purpose of raising children. Including the purpose of persuading others of our view of purposes and/or Purpose.Even the purpose of trying to figure out if we have Purpose with a capital P. Even the purpose of ignoring the fact that we don't have Purpose with a capital P; or trying to embrace the fact that we don't have Purpose with a capital P. Which leads to some interesting mental acrobatics it seems to me. Mostly wishful thinking.
It seems to me.RRohan doesn't mean that we don't have purposes in the plural. We're a purpose-making-and-seeking machine as it were. What's odd is that that is true about us, and yet we seem to have no Purpose with a capital P. The way a pickup truck does.Unless there is a God who made us. In which case He might have had a Purpose in mind for us worth considering.Now Robin will come along and say it all or something better, in fewer clearer words. Wait and see.This message has been edited by Faith, 01-18-2006 06:19 PM

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The question isn't "Do we have purposes." Haven't we all agreed that we do?

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No, I do not think we have. Your purposes are all subjective. Why should we believe that the purpose of a human is to raise children? Some people's purpose isn't even to pursuade others. It would seem as though such purposes can only be recognized after the fact, which doesn't say a lot about their meaningfulness.As for your ideas on Purpose, of which Purpose are you thinking? I mean, a Purpose is as subjective as a purpose, unless we can all come to an agreement on the existence/non-existence of God/god, and whether or not He/(he/she/it) did have a Purpose in mind for our existence.TrékThis message has been edited by Invictus, 01/18/2006 02:00 AM

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

pssst...chat

Robin,You ever read Vonnegut's THE SIRENS OF TITAN? Do you think the purpose of having children is to have some one to freely love you?What if tonight you were awakened by a glowing presence that you absolutely knew to be God and that prescence told you in some undeniable way that it created you to freely love it? How would that improve your life or make you feel better?I'm really not getting why it's important to have been created for some purpose.lfen

Sigh. You make me SO glad RR posts here.Logic, friend, logic.

We do have a purpose, despite not being created. The thing is that the purpose is subjective. Each person's purpose is what he makes it to be. This is because there is no objective purpose, such as we might find in a car, but simply a purpose that we must invent on our own.And there is certainly no evidence for there being a Purpose.And hey Faith... why don't you join us in chat?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

Why is what you say logic? And if what I say isn't logic, what is it?Trék

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In considering the Origin of Species, it is quite conceivable that a naturalist... might come to the conclusion that each species had not been independently created, but had descended, like varieties, from other species. - Charles Darwin On the Origin of Species

I've often thought that. So life does matter, because life does matter. And since it does matter, there must be an afterlife. And since there's an afterlife, life matters.Hang on. You spun in so many circles there, I got a little nauseous. Gotta sit down a minute. I need to photoshop up an image of an awards statuette for non-sequiturs, to be given out in situations like this. I can call them "The Syamsies" or something.You asked why life is worth living if there's no objective meaning. I told you the answer for the only person for whom I am qualified to answer: me. If you wanna know why the starving kids keep on living, go ahead and ask them. Clearly they have some sort of reason. 1) It's Douglas Adams' line, not mine.2) It's an awesome line.3) Don't worry... the short pocket of time in which I used the phrase is now over. Therefore, it is meaningless. The fact that it caused me to chuckle, therefore causing me brief enjoyment, means nothing. The fact that it ended has removed all relevance.

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"I fail to comprehend your indignation, sir. I've simply made the logical deduction that you are a liar."
-Spock

Our agreement is about a conditional: If there is no God, then life has no "Big P Purpose."This leads to another agreement about the falseness of what I would call "humanistic piety."But beyond that, the differences in our views become enormous, I think. You said it very well.This message has been edited by robinrohan, 01-18-2006 09:48 AM

Step-children only.