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Author Topic:   People - I /was/ a Christian
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6645
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 256 of 307 (422063)
09-15-2007 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object
09-15-2007 5:00 PM


Talk about trapped by bad arguments
It is an axiomatic truth that Atheists (like yourself) cannot be honest or objective about the Source which falsifies their worldview.

And the weakness of your logical construction is that it relies on this axiom. Once this axiom is deleted, then you have no argument left. And, unlike most axioms, you cannot even appeal to either evidence or "common sense" for its adoption. It is an entirely ad hoc addition to save the conclusions that you feel must be true.


I could tell you what I've read about evolution, the big-bang, super-universes, quantum foam, and all that stuff. Eventually you'd ask a question I can't answer, then I'd have to go look it up. Even If I had the time for that shit, in the end you'd ask a question science hasn't answered yet. So let's save time and skip ahead to "I don't know." -- jhuger
This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-15-2007 5:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:00 PM Chiroptera has responded

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 257 of 307 (422065)
09-15-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
09-13-2007 9:56 PM


Re: Runaway Frog
Buzsaw: my earlier comments about Fundamentalism are not in any way directed at you. We disagree theologically and denominationally as do many Christians - big deal. I have read many posts by the Atheist-evolutionist element here at EvC condemning you with harsh invective. This means you are uttlerly correct and on the right path in my eyes. Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic. You are a great Creationist and Designist, which is the subject here at EvC and I do not want our enemies to misconstrue theological difference between you and I to mean that we do not support one another. I think that you agree too.

Thanks Ray. We've had our differences over time, but I do indeed appreciate and support much of what you advocate as well as the kind remarks. :cool:


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
This message is a reply to:
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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1359 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 258 of 307 (422129)
09-15-2007 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Cold Foreign Object
09-13-2007 9:56 PM


Re: Runaway Frog
Whoever the evolutionists condemn are the most right, this is invulnerable logic.

I condemn Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Osama bin Laden, Fred Phelps, every member of the KKK, neo-Nazis, other racists and bigots of all types, murderers, rapists, thieves, President Bush, and bad drivers. And more, but I dont feel like typing it all out.

I'm an evolutionist.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 259 of 307 (422253)
09-16-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 256 by Chiroptera
09-15-2007 5:46 PM


Re: Talk about trapped by bad arguments
Ray originally writes:

It is an axiomatic truth that Atheists (like yourself) cannot be honest or objective about the Source which falsifies their worldview.

Atheist-evolutionist in response writes:

And the weakness of your logical construction is that it relies on this axiom. Once this axiom is deleted, then you have no argument left. And, unlike most axioms, you cannot even appeal to either evidence or "common sense" for its adoption. It is an entirely ad hoc addition to save the conclusions that you feel must be true.

Said response makes no sense, but simply denies a self-evident fact: Atheists are horribly biased against the Bible and their opinions concerning the Scriptures are, of course, entirely predictable and predetermined.

Ray

Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Chiroptera, posted 09-15-2007 5:46 PM Chiroptera has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 6:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded
 Message 267 by bluegenes, posted 09-16-2007 6:52 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 260 of 307 (422254)
09-16-2007 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by Rahvin
09-15-2007 11:56 PM


Re: Runaway Frog
My comment was talking about persons here at EvC Forum. Since Buzsaw and Randman and NJ and myself are ritually condemned, this is the best evidence that we are correct since our 'condemners' are Atheists and Evolutionists.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2100 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 261 of 307 (422255)
09-16-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 260 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:04 PM


Re: Runaway Frog
only because you claim that the people who condemn you are atheists and evolutionists.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 260 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 262 of 307 (422258)
09-16-2007 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by iceage
09-15-2007 5:39 PM


Re: Bible study
The verse does *not* apply in the manner you really really want to apply it.

Yes it does. You have evaded my reply altogether, which was simple and logical. The context of verses 11 and 12 is verse 10 and the same plainly speaks of persons who have rejected Christ's love and salvation (content after semi colon: "because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved."). In response, God, through Paul, in the next two verses, says He will delude the minds of these persons for the sole purpose of making sure they suffer eternal damnation.

This explains Crashfrog's admitted delusion and the title of Richard Dawkins most recent book. Yes, there is a delusion at work, and the Bible says those who have rejected Christ (Atheists and Apostates) are the target of delusion.

Your MiddleTown Bible Church quote evades what the tenth verse actually says and it is probably a quote mine on your part.

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by iceage, posted 09-15-2007 5:39 PM iceage has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by iceage, posted 09-16-2007 7:31 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 263 of 307 (422270)
09-16-2007 6:27 PM
Reply to: Message 254 by jar
09-15-2007 5:29 PM


Re: Trapped By His Own Argument
First it is a letter to a specific church....[SNIP]

No one denies this nor is this fact in dispute, nor was it ever in dispute, Jar.

....relating to a specific issue that church faced at that specific time.

IF you are attempting to say that what is written does not apply today, nor can it be interpreted to apply today, then this is false, since the Bible is the eternal word of God and since I have already shown perfect correspondence to the reality called Crashfrog.

Second, you are misrepresenting the contents. The whole issue relates to those who might issue specific prophecies.

False.

The issue is the context of verses 11 and 12, which is the last phrases of verse 10. Since I have plainly said this and since you have ignored we must conclude that you cannot refute?

Does your constant Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit bother you?

Slander.

Dr. Lloyd Jones: "Who is preaching the gospel? Whoever is being slandered."

Ray

Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by jar, posted 09-15-2007 5:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 6:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30996
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.2


Message 264 of 307 (422275)
09-16-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 263 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:27 PM


Re: Trapped By His Own Argument
I'm sorry ray, but one of us has provided links to all of 2 Thessalonian while the other is quotemining and taking things out of context.

IF you are attempting to say that what is written does not apply today, nor can it be interpreted to apply today, then this is false, since the Bible is the eternal word of God and since I have already shown perfect correspondence to the reality called Crashfrog.

I am saying that 2 Thessalonian is a letter written to a particular church dealing with particular issues faced by particular people at a particular time.

It is totally unrelated to whether or not Crashfrog was a Christian and later became an Atheist. You have shown no correlation between 2 Thessalonian and Crashfrog other than in your fantasies.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 7:30 PM jar has responded

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 150 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 265 of 307 (422277)
09-16-2007 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 261 by macaroniandcheese
09-16-2007 6:09 PM


Re: Runaway Frog
only because you claim that the people who condemn you are atheists and evolutionists.

it's really quite a good strategy.

"darwinists who disagree with me prove me right."
"everyone who disagrees with me is a darwinist."


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6645
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 266 of 307 (422281)
09-16-2007 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:00 PM


Re: Talk about trapped by bad arguments
Said response makes no sense....

Of course it doesn't make sense to you. Under the delusion you suffer, no counter argument is going to make sense to you. Under the delusion you suffer, your arguments are going to seem very logical, no matter how irrational they are.

As I've pointed out before, your own statement is very apt:

But at the same time, delusion is understood to mean that the deluded is unaware of being in a state of delusion.

That means you are completely unable to understand how powerful the delusion you suffer really is. Every argument against you position, regardless of how cogent, will seem to you to be illogical and rife with error. Every irrational sequence of statements that you write will, under your delusion, appear to be completely reasonable.

Hey, you said it yourself!


You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra
This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 649 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 267 of 307 (422284)
09-16-2007 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:00 PM


A thrilling read
CFO writes:

Atheists are horribly biased against the Bible and their opinions concerning the Scriptures are, of course, entirely predictable and predetermined.

Why should I approach the Bible with bias? I've always enjoyed fiction with lots of blood and guts type action, so I could be prejudiced in its favour.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:00 PM Cold Foreign Object has not yet responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 268 of 307 (422285)
09-16-2007 6:55 PM


Atheist Evangelism
This topic (by Crashfrog) is an attempt to proselytize in behalf of the Atheist faith.

We are TOLD (by Crashfrog) that we must take his word that he was a "real Christian." He fails to see that this claim is impossible since it presupposes the reality of Christ, which he then says in the next breath does not exist.

But, however, Crashfrog ***could have been*** a real Christian, then, through the process of time, become apostate. This is, unfortunately, a common testimony. We know Charles Darwin was a Christian, then an Apostate, then an Atheist.

I have argued (up until this point) that Crashfrog was not a real Christian at any point, however, this argument was incomplete. We know many persons have this exact testimony and I wish to concede the point and grant him his assertion.

The Bible shows many examples of persons who WERE believers then became apostate: Paul said "Demas hath forsaken me having loved this present world." Jude speaks of Apostates who try and take advantage of the Church structure. Judas was "a real Christian" but we know that he betrayed Christ, and, of course, there is Eli the Priest (in the O.T.) who God judged for failing to execute his office. I could go on and on with BIBLICAL examples.

The point is that 2Thessalonians 2 plainly tells us that God "sends strong delusion" if you trifle with Him. Sure Crashfrog was a real Christian, but he trifled with Christ, rejected the fact that he was on trial, quit the way of faith, and he is now suffering the delusion spoken of, and like the verses say, "believes a lie."

In response, Crashfrog says that the authors of the Bible were smart enough to explain rejection of their message by claiming that God deludes the minds of persons. In other words, Crashfrog is saying that the Apostles are liars.

We have a choice here: do we believe our own experience with Christ and the results of our faith that God has honored based on what St. Paul and the Apostles have said, or do we believe some Atheist-evolutionist loon on the Internet?

Ray


Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Chiroptera, posted 09-16-2007 6:59 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

  
Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6645
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 269 of 307 (422286)
09-16-2007 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Cold Foreign Object
09-16-2007 6:55 PM


Re: Atheist Evangelism
...do we believe our own experience with Christ and the results of our faith that God has honored based on what St. Paul and the Apostles have said....

But if you are the one suffering under the delusion, then your own experience, the results of your faith, and your interpretations of what St. Paul and the Apostles have said are all suspect.

You said it yourself:

delusion is understood to mean that the deluded is unaware of being in a state of delusion.


You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra
This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-16-2007 6:55 PM Cold Foreign Object has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 09-17-2007 9:51 PM Chiroptera has responded

Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1220 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 270 of 307 (422296)
09-16-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 264 by jar
09-16-2007 6:36 PM


Re: Trapped By His Own Argument
I'm sorry ray, but one of us has provided links to all of 2 Thessalonian while the other is quotemining and taking things out of context.

You have evaded my posts and arguments because you cannot refute.

I am saying that 2 Thessalonian is a letter written to a particular church dealing with particular issues faced by particular people at a particular time.

And I am saying that it plainly corresponds to reality, today, too. This proves the Scriptures are the product of Divine inspiration - its main claim.

It is totally unrelated to whether or not Crashfrog was a Christian and later became an Atheist. You have shown no correlation between 2 Thessalonian and Crashfrog other than in your fantasies.

It was false the first time you asserted this and it remains false. Crashfrog has admitted that he was under a delusion thinking he was having communion with God but it was really himself.

2Thess. 2 says God sends strong delusion to ensure damnation upon those who scorn His Son.

We have perfect correspondence and the real reason for Frog's delusion and yours (being an Apostate too).

Ray


This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by jar, posted 09-16-2007 6:36 PM jar has responded

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