People - I /was/ a Christian

It is really sad when the godless atheists instruct fundamentalist on the very object of their idolatry!I did not evade your reply but responded directly. Verse 9 and 10 are connected with a conjunction connecting the thoughts - you can not disassociate them because of your bias and propensity to condemn others.Even the phrase you want to desperately isolate has another conjunction connecting it with the prior thought. Check out the grammatical uses of conjunctions and semi-colons before you reply. If it were a quote mine why not just prove it! The link was provided.Why would you just make an empty false accusation instead of proving your assertion - this is further dishonesty. BTW, I also just checked Matthew Henry's commentary and it includes verse 5 thru 12 as a unit - those godless heathens.What is even more amazing that you make the empty accusation of quote mining while you are busy quote mining the very bible yourself by not including the all important full context.Look by using your technique I can make the Bible say: When in fact it does not.. As you will note context is important. You cannot apply this verse to Crashfrog but it may apply to yourself if you think about a while.

I'm sorry but all you have done is take three lines out of context when 2 Thessalonian is actually three pages long.It is also irrelevant and unimportant. Crashfrog is aware of all of 2 Thessalonian, and he came to the conclusion that it is but a fable.You are basing your position on a believe that you are right but so far have shown no evidence to support your position other than quotemining and taking things out of context.You also make absurd and false statments about "The Bible" as though some such thing existed.Irregardless, Crashfrog has testified that he was a Christian and is now an atheist. For you to dispute that you need to show that at the time he was a Christian he did not really believe in God or the Christian Creeds.Nobody cares about whether you think someone is deluded or damned, that's unimportant.The key is that you need to address the facts.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Your comment ignores that I mentioned results - something Crashfrog admittedly never got from God. Your comment also presupposes the Apostles are liars or deluded (like I had previously pointed out). Since you are an Atheist could we expect you to believe or say anything else? They could not have been deluded since each of them had what scholars call a "cataclysmic change for the better." They either lied or told the truth.In regards to delusion: we have a source (= the Bible) and explanation for unbelievers and nonbelievers; the Bible says those who have (past tense) rejected Christ are suffering a delusion from God for scorning His Son. With this said: what is your source and basis for belief that Christians are under a delusion?Ray

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what is your source and basis for belief that Christians are under a delusion?

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There are at least tens of thousands of Christian denominations worldwide, each believing different things.They can't all be right when they hold contradictory views of what the Truth(tm) is.Therefore, the vast majority of them, by definition, are deluded.

I didn't say that I believed that Christians are under a delusion. I simply pointed out the self-evident fact that if you were under a delusion you wouldn't be aware that you were under a delusion.The facts that you believe to be true could be part of the delusion, but you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. The logic you use could be very irrational, but the nature of your delusion would prevent you from recognizing this. The guidence you feel from God could very well be part of your delusion.Again, if you were the deluded one, you wouldn't be aware of it.

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You can observe a lot by watching. -- Yogi Berra

You are steadfast in your blatant and arrogant attempt at quote mining the bible for your blind obsession to condemn others. This may very well be entered as evidence of your delusion as you refuse not only accept the plain reading of your referenced scriptures but also every commentary I have ever read on the subject.

Here we have a supposition that said conjunction was denied or disputed. Since this is false said supposition is a deliberate misrepresentation. Here we have another false supposition/misrepresentation.Said conjunctions were never denied, what is denied, by you, is the phrases that come AFTER these conjunctions, which set the context for the next two verses concerning delusion from God. You fail to see that the "MiddleTown Bible Church" is not a source or a scholar, you also fail to see that your use of "this source" is an isolated pick and choose that conveniently supports your corruptive intent concerning 2Thess. 2. Your use is a quote mine OR they are quote mining (doesn't matter) BECAUSE both of you or just you are evading what comes after the semi-colon before verse 11.You have been told this at least two times now. This is a blatant misrepresention and evasion of phrases before verse 11 (which is the exact context of verses 11 and 12). You are a Atheist-evolutionist loon whose only intent is to evade and corrupt these textual facts because they explain your godless state too.Common sense says if you want accurate information about the Bible: read it yourself and do not consult an Atheist-evolutionist.Anyone can turn to 2Thess. 2:11,12 and read that God sends strong delusion as a punishment on those who rejected salvation and Christ's love.Ray

Since you are an Atheist-evolutionist and I am a Christian invulnerable logic says your contention that I am mishandling the Bible is false. Logically, your status as an Atheist-evolutionist says you will always quote mine (= corrupt) the Bible in your favor since you are as such.Logically, because you are an Atheist your condemnation of my use of the Bible is the best evidence that my use is correct. Your approval, because you are an Atheist, would make my handling and use false.Ray Martinez, Protestant Evangelical Creationist-Designist

The clear context of your quoted scripture is about Satan using his supernatural powers to deceive thru the use of signs and lying wonders. Let the actual text talk for itself. You have to read scriptures holistically and in context. You are isolating text to satisfy some egotistical need to condemn or belittle others. You say But you are denying. You are *overtly* denying and ignoring the conjunctions because the conjunctions connect the previous thoughts which gives the whole picture of the context. Look there is even a comma between 9 and 10. I can only imagine if you were a scribe you would remove verse 9.It is painfully obvious what you are doing and I wonder if this is evidence your own delusion as you cannot see it.Let's review your own words. You are denying the obvious connection of verse 9 (thru the use of a conjunction and comma) the gives the complete context which is not what you want. Here is where you are being dishonest. You accused that I quote mined. I did not. But since you cannot backup that accusation now you discount the source. First I have not denied what comes after the semi-colon just realized that the verse is connected and meaning not want you want.Second I am sure Middletown Baptist are godless atheist because they do not recognize your authority.Third Matthew Henry, the godless heathen, agrees with the text and the context, he connects verses 5 - 12. Crashfrog never mentioned being swayed by Signs, wonders, visions, miracles, lying wonders, etc.You are just plain wrong. I would imagine that most people probably meet your threshold for being atheist-evolutionist loons (including the good folk at Middletown Baptist).The very fact that you would associate evolution to a completely unrelated biblical interpretation is telling who is the loon. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

i thought we already covered this, ray. you're not a christian. remember?you suggested that we could determine who was really a christian and who wasn't by a person's argument. your argument contradicted the teachings of christ, because you go around condemning others. so you're not a christian.sorry, but thanks for playing.

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Presupposing (again) that I denied the fact above is explained by the fact that you are under the strong delusion identified in verses 11 and 12 and seek to undermine this disturbing truth by misrepresenting the context and lying that I have denied the blue box fact.Once again, the issue is text that comes after the blue box fact and before verse 11 begins. Three times you have evaded; this is explained by your desire to distort the plain reading and its obvious explanation of why you are an Atheist.Overall, in context, the block of verses is revealing that God allows Satan power to deceive persons who reject truth and that God Himself also operates this way towards persons who scorn His love and salvation. The word is "wholistically" and not "holistically," Iceage. Your comment betrays exactly what you are guilty of in addition to corruption since you are an Atheist and the subject is the Bible. My last two posts acknowledged the conjunctions, why are you lying to my face?Again, the issue is what comes after the conjunctions = what you have not acknowledged over the course of three exchanges. You have been told and shown the truth and yet you fail to recognize your errors. We can only explain this by remembering the fact that you are an Atheist and the issue is Biblical interpretation and its explanation of why you are an Atheist. This is the first time you even mentioned this text. Feel free to show me in previous posts where you have addressed the last two phrases before verse 11?These two phrases are the exact context of verses 11 and 12 = not a matter of opinion.The point is that these verses tells us the real reason why you do not have a spiritual IQ. God has rejected you for scorning His Son, this explains "ex-Christians" who are now Atheists.Ray

Since you are a person who thinks mankind evolved from an ape ancestor instead of being created by God in His image, and since Richard Dawkins believes what you believe, this proves you are not a real Christian and that I am.Objective persons know Christians and Atheists do not agree on origins: if they do then one party is not genuinely as such. I believe Richard Dawkins is a real Atheist.Ray Martinez, Protestant Evangelical Paulinist

since you do not believe in the bible, that proves you are not a christian.

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"Holistically" is in my dictionary - wholistically is not. Holistic

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Emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts.

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That is exactly the word that illustrates the issue.I am urging you to understand the importance of the whole and that you cannot yank some sentence fragment and bang someone over the head with it.Your mis-definition aside (which is not a big deal as I am guilt of such all the time) I am curious why you would aggressively attack with this: All I am saying context is important! Other commentators agree. Why all the bluster about guilty, corruption, atheist, etc. just because you thought a word was misused. Get a grip fella.Further your dispute is not with me but the KJV translators. They are the ones who studied the text and choose the connecting phasing and semi-colons. I am just applying the rules of English grammar and comprehension.You may not deny the existence of conjunctions but you certainly are discounting them. You are proof-texting the Bible.Crashfrog's experience does not apply as described by the Thessalonian passages when read in context.You are claiming that your own self-proclaimed status as a Christian allow you to unassailably to misinterpret the Bible to your own liking and override anyone else's including other Christian commentators.That is extreme self-righteous arrogance. Wow! You are a work.... Are you really a Christian or perhaps one of the deluded souls talked about in Thessalonian's.Galations talks about the fruit of the spirits (love, joy, peace, gentleness, meekness, temperance, etc.) I see no outwards signs or manifestations of any of these characteristics in your various attacks, judgments and condemnations.And just who in the hell gives you the understanding or knowledge that God has rejected anyone!!!!!!The only thing explained by this is that you are not a Christian. Edited by iceage, : cleaned up

iceage How hard is this to figure out? Let's count, shall we?1.) CFO has no right to "condemn" anyone - that right is reserved for iceage (In context, not a Christian = condemned)2.) I have maintained that there are persons to whom it wouldn't normally be correct to describe as 'christians'.http://EvC Forum: The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution -->EvC Forum: The Big Bang, Abiogenesis, and Evolution3.) iceage has attempted to argue against me. (post 226)4.) iceage says CFO is not a 'christian'.There is indeed very little fixity of language in someone's world!It's more entertaining than even his argument from post 279 of this thread 1.) Such a person might well be expected to be unaware they'd been fooled.2.) If they were aware, they just might not be in a big hurry to bring it up3.) Is it a coincidence that iceage mentions 'Signs, wonders, visions, miracles, lying' wonders while omitting to mention 'false doctrines' (unless they're included in the "etc.")? I don't think so. When false doctrines enter the picture, his argument is obviously even weaker.In my opinion the verses under discussion are prophetic and refer to the time of the Antichrist. But there's no obvious reason God must confine the strong delusions to those days if some in other times manage to meet the qualifications.I did have somewhat to comment on the original topic. In my experience, Christians who "fall away" do so for one reason in the vast majority of cases: they mistakenly blame God for suffering and/or death. They fail to understand the eternal nature of existence and God's capacity to make things right in the "end"(eternity has no actual end).I noticed that statistically, the group here is extraordinary in that it lacks a representative in this category. I will say flat out that I believe we have at least one case of fraud present. There are other specific reasons, but I don't plan on pointing out individuals.I recommend that readers bear in mind the common deceitful practices of evolutionists, and of the internet community overall. Take a good critical look at these stories before swallowing them, and do not be easily swindled. The "insider view" of Christianity they'd sell you may well be pure imagination.Real Christians attempt to follow the Bible. They fail, and have shortcomings; but they try. They do not intentionally misinterpret or misrepresent the Bible. But as you can see from 2 Thessalonians 2:7, there have been imposters at work from the beginning. Judas Iscariot is another example, but we have a link nice & handy.The presence of imposters does not mean there are no real Christians, any more than the presence of counterfeit money means there is no real money. Same deal with Bibles and counterfeit bibles.Indeed, the presence of counterfeits is a strong indicator that there exists something real to copy, and motives for doing so.Because there are motives, this translates into other forms of opposition (not everyone is cut out for infiltration). Nothing has been opposed as fiercely as God's Truth. Nothing is even close. On that basis one expects it to be either totally wrong or totally right (otherwise those who oppose would have some higher priority).