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Author Topic:   The Literal Genesis Account of Creation
ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 241 of 316 (406626)
06-21-2007 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by pbee
06-21-2007 3:34 PM


Enough of the gallop, Gish. Just answer the question: Was the firmament (heaven) created on the second day?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 3:34 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 7:34 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 242 of 316 (406676)
06-21-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by ringo
06-21-2007 3:54 PM


The answer would be yes, the various KJV bibles describe the second day event as; firmament, dome or expanse.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 3:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 7:39 PM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 243 of 316 (406678)
06-21-2007 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by pbee
06-21-2007 7:34 PM


pbee writes:
... the various KJV bibles describe the second day event as; firmament, dome or expanse.
Then, when Genesis 1:1 says, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth," what does it mean? Doesn't it refer ro the same creation of the same heaven? Didn't that happen on Day 2?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 7:34 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 7:43 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 244 of 316 (406679)
06-21-2007 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by ringo
06-21-2007 7:39 PM


No, we have scriptural evidence suggesting otherwise. It is also notable to take into consideration that the age of the earth coincides with the notion that God created the heavens(universe) and the earth prior to the creative days of Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 7:39 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:08 PM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 245 of 316 (406684)
06-21-2007 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by pbee
06-21-2007 7:43 PM


pbee writes:
No, we have scriptural evidence suggesting otherwise.
So, we have a passage that says exactly when heaven was created (Genesis 1:6-8) and another passage refering to that same event (Genesis 1:1). How can any other scriptural evidence "suggest otherwise"? That in itself would be a contradiction.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 7:43 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 8:43 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 246 of 316 (406689)
06-21-2007 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 245 by ringo
06-21-2007 8:08 PM


The Scriptures repeatedly term the sky or atmosphere in which the birds fly as heavens. Thus at creation God said 'Let flying creatures fly over the earth in the bosom of the expanse of the heavens.' And the divine Record states that at the time of the Deluge God wiped out every existing thing from man to flying creature of the heavens. These are the heavens into which associated ascension with saying 'a fiery war-chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both and Elijah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens. This could not have been the heavens where God is, because many centuries later Jesus said that no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.
The term heavens is also used throughout the scriptures to refer to the celestial bodies, the universe of the stars. Thus we read that in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Also that God promised Abraham saying 'I shall surely multiply your seed like the stars of the heavens.' These milky ways, starry galaxies, testify eloquently to the majesty of the great Creator and therefore the psalmist well exclaimed 'The heavens declare the glory of God.'
The scriptures also speak of God’s invisible creation, his host of spirit creatures as well as their abode, as heavens. Incidentally, there does not seem to be any distinctions made between the singular or plural form of heaven(s). Some speculate as to whether these heavens are merely a condition or mental state or have a location, but the Scriptures clearly indicate that we are to associate a special location with the spiritual heavens.
The Scriptures also speak of heavens as the exalted or lofty part of a world. The term world occurs in the KJV some 200+ times where hundreds of these translates to the Greek word kosmos. A renown Greek philosopher defined the term kosmos as 'A system composed of the heaven and the earth, and of the creatures contained in them; otherwise the orderly and beautiful arrangement of the world is called kosmos.'
So we can identify that in the Scriptures the term *heavens is used to apply to both the atmosphere and the starry heavens. It is also used to designate the very presence of God as well as the location of his myriads of spirit creatures. Further, heavens also denotes the lofty, invisible part of a world or system of things.
The second creative day, states that God created an expanse (Hebrew, ra·qi'a') come to be in between the waters and let a dividing occur between the waters and the waters. Then God proceeded to make the expanse and to make a division between the waters that should be beneath the expanse and the waters that should be above the expanse. And God began to call the expanse Heaven. Later the record speaks of luminaries appearing in the expanse of the heavens, and still later of flying creatures flying over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.
The Greek Septuagint used the word ste·re'o·ma(meaning; firm and solid structure) to translate the Hebrew term (ra·qi'a') and the Latin Vulgate used the Latin term firmamentum, which conveys the notion of something solid and firm. The KJV and many others follow suit in translating ra·qi'a' by the word firmament. However, in its marginal reading the KJV gives the alternate reading expansion, and the American Standard Version gives expanse in its footnote. Other translations support such renderings as expanse, expansin, étendue(extent or expanse).
The expanse produced on the second creative day, no solid substance is described as being beaten out but, rather, the creation of an open space, or division, between the waters covering the earth and other waters above the earth. It describes the formation of the atmospheric expanse surrounding the earth and indicates that at one time there was no clear division or open space but that the entire globe was previously enveloped in water vapor. This also coincides with scientific reasoning on the early stages of the planet’s formation and the view that at one time all of earth’s water existed in the form of atmospheric vapor because of the extreme heat of the earth’s surface at that point.
Though the formation of the expanse or atmosphere surrounding earth did not involve a beating out of something as solid as often illustrated, it should be remembered that the gaseous mixture forming earth’s atmosphere is just as real as land and water and has weight in itself(in addition to water and particles of solid materials). The weight of the surroundings of the earth is estimated at more than 5,200,000,000,000,000 metric tons. The World Book Encyclopedia, 1987, Vol. 1, p. 156 claims that air pressure at sea level runs about 1 kg per sq cm(15 lb per sq in.). It also exercises resistance so that most meteors hitting the immense jacket of air surrounding the earth are burned up by the friction created by the atmosphere. Thus the force implied in the Hebrew word ra·qi'a' proves to be in harmony with modern scientific facts.
In the Psalms the expanse(firmament), along with the heavens, is said to tell of God’s works and praise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:56 PM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 247 of 316 (406690)
06-21-2007 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by pbee
06-21-2007 8:43 PM


pbee writes:
So we can identify that in the Scriptures the term *heavens is used to apply to both the atmosphere and the starry heavens. It is also used to designate the very presence of God as well as the location of his myriads of spirit creatures. Further, heavens also denotes the lofty, invisible part of a world or system of things.
You're over-complicating a simple issue.
The same Hebrew word is used for "heaven" in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:6-8. How is it not speaking of the same "heaven" and the same creative event?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 8:43 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 9:16 PM ringo has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 248 of 316 (406695)
06-21-2007 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 247 by ringo
06-21-2007 8:56 PM


The lengthy response was in attempt to illustrate the various meanings for the term *heaven throughout the scriptures.
In the case of the Genesis Creation account we can make good use of the context to help identify the true meaning of *heaven on the second day of Creation. Here we have mention of water and firmament or expanse(athomosphere) which helps position the account into a fitting context.
We can also look to scientific evidence(the age of the earth) and information collected on the formation of the earths atmosphere, to further quantify the meaning of the admission.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 8:56 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 9:38 PM pbee has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 249 of 316 (406699)
06-21-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by pbee
06-21-2007 9:16 PM


pbee writes:
The lengthy response was in attempt to illustrate the various meanings for the term *heaven throughout the scriptures.
We're not interested in the "various meanings". We're only interested in the meaning in Genesis 1.
In the case of the Genesis Creation account we can make good use of the context to help identify the true meaning of *heaven on the second day of Creation.
Why would the context of completely different books supercede the context of Genesis 1? I'm talking about two words that are only six verses apart. You have to explain the close context first, not go looking far and wide to try to explain the close context away.
We can also look to scientific evidence(the age of the earth) and information collected on the formation of the earths atmosphere, to further quantify the meaning of the admission.
All the scientific evidence we have indicates that the account in Genesis 1 is completely wrong. It makes no sense to cherry-pick one item from science to try to "disprove" the clear connection between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:6-8.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 9:16 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 10:41 PM ringo has replied
 Message 253 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2007 11:07 PM ringo has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 250 of 316 (406701)
06-21-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by jar
06-21-2007 1:39 AM


Re: doesn't matter what games you play with the word for days
Total nonsense. Again, without the sun there is no life.
jar do you mean there will be no life in heaven.
There will be no sun, then the trees by the river of life could not have any fruit. Whats a person to do?
God will be the light.
God was the light before the sun, moon, and stars existed.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 1:39 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 10:34 PM ICANT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 251 of 316 (406705)
06-21-2007 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 250 by ICANT
06-21-2007 10:11 PM


Still jess dancin
jar do you mean there will be no life in heaven.
Of course there will be no life in heaven, when by life we are talking about the same life as we see in Genesis.
There will be no sun, then the trees by the river of life could not have any fruit. Whats a person to do?
God will be the light.
God was the light before the sun, moon, and stars existed.
More theological masturbation.
The facts are that the Creation myth found in Genesis 1 is simply wrong.
Let's look at the rest of what I posted in Message 224.
jar writes:
Total nonsense. Again, without the sun there is no life.
Second, the first life forms were not even plants and certainly not on land.
Third, seed bearing plants were certainly not the original plants, nor were fruits.
Fourth, the concept of "Kind" is simply more mental masturbation, undefined theobabble.
Your talk of heaven is just more of your dancing away from dealing with the Bible and what it literally says.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2007 10:11 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by ICANT, posted 06-21-2007 11:15 PM jar has replied

pbee
Member (Idle past 6049 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 252 of 316 (406708)
06-21-2007 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
06-21-2007 9:38 PM


We're not interested in the "various meanings". We're only interested in the meaning in Genesis 1.
If we are indeed seeking to establish or discover the meaning of the scriptures then stating 'We're not interested in various meanings' defeats the entire purpose of the claimed efforts.
Why would the context of completely different books supersede the context of Genesis 1? I'm talking about two words that are only six verses apart. You have to explain the close context first, not go looking far and wide to try to explain the close context away.
The Pentateuch, or first five books of the Bible, are credited to Moses. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. It is logical to conclude that his writings would provide us with consistent sources of cross reference material.
All the scientific evidence we have indicates that the account in Genesis 1 is completely wrong. It makes no sense to cherry-pick one item from science to try to "disprove" the clear connection between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:6-8.
At this stage, this is purely a matter of opinion. However, from a scholastic perspective, progression can only be claimed by interpreting scriptural accounts in positive motions or in concordance with evidence and /or progressive conclusions. Evaluating and reasoning that a Genesis(under isolation) rendition(less careful study) resolves in contradiction with science and the remaining scriptures could prove as delusional behavior.
Genesis was a book penned by Moses. It was very much a part of the following books. Attempting to isolate or limit research to a narrow section adds further degradation to the process instead of raising the accuracy.
Edited by pbee, : typos
Edited by pbee, : corrections

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 9:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 11:16 PM pbee has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 253 of 316 (406711)
06-21-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by ringo
06-21-2007 9:38 PM


Re-Genesis 1:1 and 1:6-8
Ringo, Makes no difference how hard you try you will never make Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2-Genesis 2:3 happen in the same time frame. It just did not occur.
Gene 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gene 2:4 (KJV) These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
Genesis 2:4 says these are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created.
They were created in Genesis 1:1.
In the day (the day = very same day) that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens.
I am not telling you what the Hebrew and Chaldee says, neither am I telling you what the Greek Septuagint says. I am simply point out the English used in the KJV Bible.
Merriam-Webster writes:
generation-the process of coming or bringing into being
God brought into being the heaven and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
He also brought into being all the things listed in Genesis 2:4-Genesis 4:26 the same day as He created the heaven and the earth in Genesis 1:1.
That is what the KJV says. Makes no difference what anyone says. It may be correct or it may be wrong but it says the same day.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 9:38 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 256 by ringo, posted 06-21-2007 11:30 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 254 of 316 (406712)
06-21-2007 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by jar
06-21-2007 10:34 PM


Re: Still jess dancin
The facts are that the Creation myth found in Genesis 1 is simply wrong.
jar will you agree that there are 2 myths according to jar in Genesis chapter 1 through Genesis chapter 4?
One of those myths starting at Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.
The other beginning at Genesis 2:4 through Genesis 4:26.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 10:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by jar, posted 06-21-2007 11:36 PM ICANT has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 434 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 255 of 316 (406713)
06-21-2007 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by pbee
06-21-2007 10:41 PM


pbee writes:
If we are indeed seeking to establish or discover the meaning of the scriptures then stating 'We're not interested in various meanings' defeats the entire purpose of the claimed efforts.
Not at all. If we're looking at the story of the three bears, then only the meaning of the word "bear" in that story is significant. "Grin and bear it" is irrelevant. The "right to bear arms" is irrelevant. "Bare skin" is irrelevant. Polar bears are irrelevant.
Simple rule: look inside before you look outside.
The Pentateuch, or first five books of the Bible, are credited to Moses.
Incorrectly.
It is logical to conclude that his writings would provide us with consistent sources of cross reference material.
You're looking at it backwards. One of the ways we know Moses didn't write the whole Pentateuch is because the use of words is inconsistent.
Evaluating and reasoning that a Genesis(under isolation) rendition(less careful study) resolves in contradiction with science and the remaining scriptures could prove as delusional behavior.
On the contrary, using external materials to try to erase internal contradictions is delusional behaviour. You've decided first that Genesis is consistent and factually correct, before even looking at any evidence.
Attempting to isolate or limit research to a narrow section adds further degradation to the process instead of raising the accuracy.
That's where your motivation is wrong. You're trying to "raise the accuracy" instead of determining the accuracy. That's the equivalent of deciding a priori that the distance from New York to Paris is three miles - and then redrawing all the maps to fit your conclusion.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by pbee, posted 06-21-2007 10:41 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 258 by pbee, posted 06-22-2007 12:20 AM ringo has replied

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