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Author Topic:   Jesus's motives for performing miracles.
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 7 of 69 (357722)
10-20-2006 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Faith
10-20-2006 11:28 AM


what about us?
"That ye might believe" says John. Believe that He is God for one thing. They demonstrate that He is in fact God.
question: why was only this specific generation chosen to be demonstrated to ?
how are we -200 generations removed- supposed to believe ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 11:28 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:29 PM Legend has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 13 of 69 (357837)
10-20-2006 6:55 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-20-2006 6:29 PM


Re: what about us?
yes, I understand all that. I'm just saying that if Jesus thought that those who didn't see were blessed, then why did be bother to show anyone at all?
He could have just said he was the Son of God and leave them to it. Those who believed him would be truly blessed, as he said.
Instead, he chose to break his own principle and reveal his true nature but only to a specific audience at a specific time and place.
I just don't understand why he would do that. If, like you claim, he wanted to demonstrate that he was God, then surely he could do it in a way that all people on earth at that time would notice, or in a way that everyone in that place ever after would notice.
If on the other hand he values faith, like he said, why is he only requesting it from us but not them?
It's a mystery to me!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 6:29 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Faith, posted 10-20-2006 7:07 PM Legend has not replied
 Message 17 by Larni, posted 10-20-2006 7:17 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 25 of 69 (357920)
10-21-2006 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Faith
10-21-2006 12:27 AM


Faith writes:
The second thing is that you are leaving out the part about how those who saw the miracles wrote about them so that the rest of us could have the same foundation for faith in Him they had.
but the only way the rest of us could have the same foundation for faith in Him they had, would be to witness the miracles ourselves!
Second-hand accounts do not provide the same foundation for faith (trust) as first-hand witnessing!
Jesus could have made miracles demonstrable through the ages for all of us to see. He didn't.
Why did he choose to provide that extra evidence to only a select amount of people ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Faith, posted 10-21-2006 12:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 10-21-2006 9:07 AM Legend has replied
 Message 29 by AdminPD, posted 10-21-2006 10:20 AM Legend has not replied
 Message 32 by Faith, posted 10-21-2006 1:14 PM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 27 of 69 (357923)
10-21-2006 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by iano
10-21-2006 9:07 AM


miracles as proclamation of divinity
To get the ball rolling. Its rolled ever since.
he could have given us the ball itself. He didn't. Why did he favour those few people over the rest of mankind ?
Many since then have been rolled over by it.
many more haven't
Jesus said he would send the holy spirit in his place whose purpose it would be to convict the world of their need of him.
then why didn't he send it to his followers so that they would be convinced, instead of performing miracles ?
He did say that those who believe without seeing are blessed, after all!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by iano, posted 10-21-2006 9:07 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by iano, posted 10-21-2006 10:00 AM Legend has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 56 of 69 (358719)
10-25-2006 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by iano
10-25-2006 7:29 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano writes:
If the purpose of one portrait is to present one aspect of a person and another another then so what? You call it a "generation shift" and a "fault line". I call it stereoscopic vision.
if you saw a portrait of Tom and a portrait of Harry side-by-side would you call it a steresocopic vision of Tom? or a steresocopic vision of Harry ?
the synoptics portray Tom, John's gospel portrays Harry (Tom's mystical, hellenistic brother).

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 7:29 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 8:31 AM Legend has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 58 of 69 (358726)
10-25-2006 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by iano
10-25-2006 8:31 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano writes:
The contention seems to be that the compassionate Jesus of the synoptics is absent in John. You are aware of the shortest verse in the Bible and in which gospel it is contained?
John 11:35 writes:
Jesus wept
Reading the verses above that one, it seems that an equally valid reason for his weeping was guilt, rather than compassion.
Besides, I'm not purporting compassion to be totally asbent from John's Jesus, instead that in John it's just a sidenote, a minor quirk, while in the synoptics it's the main focus of Jesus's life and teachings.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by iano, posted 10-25-2006 8:31 AM iano has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5033 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 66 of 69 (358998)
10-26-2006 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by iano
10-26-2006 10:35 AM


Re: Yeshua the Healer
iano writes:
One must make a choice I suppose but the synoptics contain evidence of his divinity and John contains evidence of his compassion so your either/or seems to be lost at sea to me
It's because you've already made the choice of amalgamating the two into one (as per your previous "stereoscopic vision" analogy). The synoptics focus on a fiery yet compassionate preacher who teaches that good deeds will see you through in the kingdom of heaven. John focuses on a meta-physical divine being whose main role is living out a pre-arranged scenario in order to 'redeem' us.
If they're all based on eyewitness accounts (as you and most Christians believe), then it really does come down to a crossroads:
Either Jesus made a hell of a contradictory impression on people around him
Or One of the two lines of gospel authors knew very little about Jesus and was instead pursuing its own theological interests.
Just because you've chosen the first option doesn't mean that the dividing line isn't there.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by iano, posted 10-26-2006 10:35 AM iano has not replied

  
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