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Author Topic:   Politcally Correct Christ
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 118 of 301 (348183)
09-11-2006 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
09-11-2006 4:55 PM


Well, actually both extremes were cited, Sadducees and Pharisees. The biggest difference is the the Pharisee movement was relatively short lived and none of their documents have yet been found.
This is very odd, jar, since the Pharisees continue to exist. They are today's Orthodox, not the Hasidim but the Orthodox, the ones who wear the yarmulkes and strictly observe the Sabbath, the Passover, the food laws and all the other laws, just as the Pharisees in Jesus' time did, and they do all the things He criticized them for too. Pharshee I believe they pronounce it. They go back to Hillel and Gamaliel, great Pharisee teachers.
What "documents" of theirs haven't been found? The Talmud hadn't yet been written down, but was in their day the Oral Law they followed, and now it's written down.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 119 of 301 (348185)
09-11-2006 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by jar
09-11-2006 4:55 PM


here's a reference
Contrary to your idea the Pharisees were a short-lived movement, they were the only branch of Judaism that survived, according to this site:
The Pharisaic school of thought is the only one that survived the destruction of the Temple. The Zealots were killed off during the war with Rome. The Sadducees could not survive without the Temple, which was the center of their religion. The Essenes, who were never very numerous, were apparently killed off by the Romans (they were easily recognizable in their isolated communities).
For many centuries after the destruction of the Temple, there was no large-scale, organized difference of opinion within Judaism. Judaism was Judaism, and it was basically the same as what we now know as Orthodox Judaism.
Judaism 101: Movements of Judaism

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 153 of 301 (348511)
09-12-2006 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
09-12-2006 7:11 PM


You must be born again
Robin's not a Christian. He's simply an honest, sensitive and insightful unregenerate with a great BS detector. It's nice to know there are still a few of those around. But if we can't tell the difference, what does that say about us?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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 Message 155 by iano, posted 09-12-2006 8:33 PM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 158 of 301 (348532)
09-12-2006 9:58 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by iano
09-12-2006 8:33 PM


Re: You must be born again
I know you know all that iano, sorry if my remark sounded like a criticism. I was just chiming in but my wording wasn't the best. Those who aren't regenerate can't tell he's not a Christian, but we certainly can. Should have said if we COULDN'T tell, what would that say about us.
I don't recall his saying Jesus was a great moral teacher though. He's called him deluded and intelligent and he appreciates his teachings from a literary point of view. But you are right, that means he hasn't reckoned with the whole picture of Jesus, doesn't it?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 159 of 301 (348623)
09-13-2006 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Archer Opteryx
09-12-2006 9:48 PM


You are changing the premise
Obviously Lewis' threefold choice for defining Jesus' character was based on accepting all the descriptions of him in all the gospels. Of course if you throw out this or that part of the Biblical portrait then Lewis' options aren't exhaustive; but if you accept the entire composite portrait in scripture they are.
quote:
Come over to my house next Sunday. Bring the kids. -God
I love you, I love you, I love you! -Jesus
These 'quotes' of God and Jesus are drawn from no Bible passage. Each is an unremarkable bumper-sticker slogan invented by a mere mortal who attributes it to the Deity to give it more heft. Maybe they wish God would say it and feel no restriction on acting out their wish. The message gets into print and is put on display--with a false attribution.
This is true and I agree completely. This is that deplorable tendency to sentimentalize God and Jesus. It's false in more than one way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-12-2006 9:48 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 161 of 301 (348625)
09-13-2006 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Phat
09-13-2006 2:43 AM


And what lesson would that be, Phat?
Each story is a parable or a lesson. It matters not whether the event actually happened (such as the Flood.) What matters is the lesson that is to be learned from the story.
Considering that the lesson one would learn from a real worldwide Flood with real consequences in the real world, as compared to a fake Flood, a metaphorical Flood, or a Flood parable, would have to be a completely different lesson, I'd say it matters a lot.
But maybe you can explain.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 301 (348668)
09-13-2006 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by robinrohan
09-13-2006 5:27 AM


Because it leads to a sentimentalization of culture generally, not just the culture of people who are professed Christians. It leads to a lack of regard about correct interpretation of old documents, as though somebody had the moral right, according to PC morals, to read into a text meanings that are very likely not there, and to proclaim, "I have the right to do this; my interpretation is just as good as yours." It's a disregard of facts.
Yes. A plague these days this point of view, not just in relation to the Bible.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 268 of 301 (348969)
09-14-2006 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by Archer Opteryx
09-13-2006 9:03 PM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
But it's kid stuff. You're not a nihilist.
What on earth do you think a nihilist is? Believing that there is no meaning in life, as well as no God, that we're just here by accident on this burned-out planet, and everything that happens appears to be accidental and meaningless, isn't nihilism enough for you?
Sure, there are other forms of nihilism, and Robin is tame by comparison. There are those who act it out more, who are willing to push the envelope to prove that there is no moral law for instance, violating all the commandments as an assertion of their meaninglessness and unreality.
Would you call Nietzsche a nihilist? Isn't he reputed to have lived a pretty tame life?

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 281 of 301 (349035)
09-14-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Archer Opteryx
09-14-2006 7:56 AM


Re: Morality & Meaning
Yeah I know N had nothing good to say about Christianity. I know he is an existentialist. He's not as self-deluded in that enterprise as Sartre and others, though, in their determination to find meaning where they have declared it impossible, assert a morality they've pronounced insupportable.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 286 of 301 (349061)
09-14-2006 1:27 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Heathen
09-14-2006 1:16 PM


Converting anyone isn't up to us anyway
I think it's just that iano and I happen to like Robin. For one thing he doesn't attack us as everyone else here does, which he's explained as his sympathy for the underdog. He talks to us as intelligent human beings. He's also got this remarkable realism, which I don't see in most of the other evos here.
But this too is a bad reason to focus on him for conversion and iano and I should confess to this. God can convert any of the obnoxious people here as well as He can convert Robin, so we're just acting fleshly in our liking of him. In fact converting a reasonable good guy is often harder than converting an out and out God-hater like, say, Brian.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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