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Author Topic:   Politcally Correct Christ
robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 301 (348655)
09-13-2006 5:27 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Brian
09-13-2006 5:04 AM


Do you go around looking at all faiths and examine their denominations to see which versions irritate you?
Yes. It's a hobby of mine.
While I would say that Jar has a great deal of Christian values, there are just too many of his beliefs that I personally have difficulty in harmonising with the Bible. I think he ignores much of what the Bible says, but that's the problem when interpretation of scripture became popular, it allowed for anything to be called Christianity.
Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with you pointing that out, as in fact you have pointed it out in Jar's case.
There's nothing wrong with somebody--such as yourself as historian and myself more amateurishly--pointing out that a particular interpretation of a Biblical text is implausible. It doesn't matter if we are believers or not.
But so what if people are turning it into a PC faith, who cares apart from someone involved?
Because it leads to a sentimentalization of culture generally, not just the culture of people who are professed Christians. It leads to a lack of regard about correct interpretation of old documents, as though somebody had the moral right, according to PC morals, to read into a text meanings that are very likely not there, and to proclaim, "I have the right to do this; my interpretation is just as good as yours." It's a disregard of facts.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 167 of 301 (348656)
09-13-2006 5:36 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by robinrohan
09-13-2006 4:25 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
So the injunction of the Great Commandment is so abstract as to be meaningless.
The injunction of the great commandments is not so abstract so as to be meaningless. There are two obvious conclusions to be drawn out of them. Firstly they are commandments. You are instructed, by someone who says he is God, to do these things and he has made it crystal clear what will happen to anyone who does not do what these commandments demand of them. To hell they shall go.
The second conclusion you have already arrived at yourself - the most obvious conclusion of all. You agree that you cannot love your neighbour as yourself. You give one reason why following this commandment is impossible and I agree with that reason. But there are other, far more straightforward reasons why you cannot do this - no matter how you try: selfishness, greed, spitfulness, meaness, pride,lust etc. I have never met a person who does not possess all these attributes in some measure or other - no even myself. I suppose neither have you.
Concluding as you do makes the commandment meaningless only if you insist that it was supposed to be plain old moral teaching to be sat up alongside the sayings of Gandhi and Buddha. Belief that he is or isn't God incarnate is irrelevant: you must take what he says in the context of what he says he is. Or you can persist in insisting his purpose was 'moral teaching'
That leaves the literary part. To merely dismiss this aspect as frivolous is to make a mistake.
Compared to the above conclusions which may be drawn, frivolous the literary aspect most certainly is.
{abe}
The religious part--that which deals with the supernatural--I don't relate to because I have never experienced anything supernatural.
I'm not sure how you can say this. For instance, is your conscience the result of natural activity or supernatural activity? You could be experiencing supernatural activity far more frequently than you suspect. Science is a relative tiddlywink when it comes to answering such questions so there is no point in turning Mr Tentitive for questions that require Mr Definitive to answer. Face it - any certainty you have is purely on the basis of personal choice - in the heel of the hunt.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by robinrohan, posted 09-13-2006 4:25 AM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 6:54 AM iano has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 168 of 301 (348663)
09-13-2006 6:54 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by iano
09-13-2006 5:36 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
Tell me Ian, do you work on a Saturday?
Would you sell your child for a few shekels?
Do you have some words from the Torah written on your doorpost?
Have you written out a scroll with the Torah on it?
Do you read the shema in the mornig and at night?
Do you bear grudges?
Give to charity?
Love strangers?
Celebrate Passover?
Rest on Rosh Hashannah?
Fast on Yom Kippur?
Do you wish to keep the Canaanites as slaves forever?
wish to put false prophets to death?
Kill all witches?
To save me time, do you observe all 613 commandments?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 5:36 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 6:59 AM Brian has replied
 Message 173 by Phat, posted 09-13-2006 7:51 AM Brian has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 169 of 301 (348664)
09-13-2006 6:59 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Brian
09-13-2006 6:54 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
To save me time, do you observe all 613 commandments?
I follow some of the laws all the time, I follow all of the laws some of the time (usually when I am sleeping). But I don't follow all of the laws all of the time. Some of the laws (lust for example) I dance all over on occasion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 6:54 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 7:46 AM iano has replied
 Message 181 by Archer Opteryx, posted 09-13-2006 8:33 AM iano has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 170 of 301 (348668)
09-13-2006 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by robinrohan
09-13-2006 5:27 AM


Because it leads to a sentimentalization of culture generally, not just the culture of people who are professed Christians. It leads to a lack of regard about correct interpretation of old documents, as though somebody had the moral right, according to PC morals, to read into a text meanings that are very likely not there, and to proclaim, "I have the right to do this; my interpretation is just as good as yours." It's a disregard of facts.
Yes. A plague these days this point of view, not just in relation to the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by robinrohan, posted 09-13-2006 5:27 AM robinrohan has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 171 of 301 (348669)
09-13-2006 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by iano
09-13-2006 6:59 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
But I don't follow all of the laws all of the time.
So, I will see you in Hell?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 6:59 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 7:51 AM Brian has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 172 of 301 (348671)
09-13-2006 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by Brian
09-13-2006 7:46 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
So, I will see you in Hell?
'Fraid not Brian. The purpose of the law is not primarily that it be followed. It is a tool which is used by the Holy Spirit to convince a person that they are hopeless sinners. And that being thus they are hellbound. That's the bad news - not the good news. It's a game of two halves...
Hopefully I'll see you there with me in heaven. Never say never.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 7:46 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 09-13-2006 7:54 AM iano has replied
 Message 182 by sidelined, posted 09-13-2006 8:37 AM iano has replied
 Message 195 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 1:10 PM iano has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 173 of 301 (348672)
09-13-2006 7:51 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Brian
09-13-2006 6:54 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
I am not Jewish, and feel that the 613 or so Laws are not for me.
Heck, lets think about the Ten Commandments--in which case I am much like Ian.
I am aware of the standards, however. Here are my basic commandments.
1) Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on thy own understanding. In other words, knowing that Christ is alive based on the experiences, observations, and internal unctions that I have had--I feel that it is my duty to pray and communicate with Him. I ask Him to convict me and keep me doing as He would do were He me.
2) Love God and ask Him to give me the desire to love others as He does. This goes against the basic grain of human nature. If it were easy to live, there would be no wars. There would be no poverty. I would be able to get along with my co-workers without feeling jealousy, competition, and devious survival tactics.
I would be able to not only love the strong young men whom I admire, but the wrinkled old men, the crabby old ladies, and the retarded, difficult people that demand much attention but have nothing to give me.
Only through Christ can you love the least of these. Its not just some behavior trait that He taught us we could do. Its allowing His love--His Spirit to shine through us. This means surrender to Him on a daily basis.
3)Im thinking---but there appears to be no "3". Perhaps I will remember it later.

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 6:54 AM Brian has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 174 of 301 (348673)
09-13-2006 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by iano
09-13-2006 7:51 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
Ian writes:
Hopefully I'll see you there with me in heaven. Never say never.
Im quite convinced that next to all of those symbolic "mansions" and streets of gold, God has built a special pub just for Brian. You should see the effect of the drinks in that place! Talk about communion!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 7:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 8:01 AM Phat has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 301 (348676)
09-13-2006 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Brian
09-13-2006 5:07 AM


I don't study the history of Christianity.
Well, you talk like you're an authority on the matter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 5:07 AM Brian has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 176 of 301 (348678)
09-13-2006 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
09-13-2006 7:54 AM


Re: Morals in the Gospels
No eye has seen what God has prepared in advance for those who love him - so I'd reduce your conviction about Brians pub to speculation. The central problem is not the characteristics of the drinks that may be served in heaven but getting there in the first place. Brian is currently careering down the path to destruction - let's hold that in mind huh?

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 Message 174 by Phat, posted 09-13-2006 7:54 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Heathen, posted 09-13-2006 12:36 PM iano has not replied
 Message 196 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 1:11 PM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 301 (348680)
09-13-2006 8:12 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Brian
09-13-2006 5:04 AM


But why do you allow it to irritate you when it has nothing to do with you?
I wouldn't mind it so much if the New Agers, instead of introducing fraudulent interpretations of scripture, said something like the following:
"Listen up, folks. We're going to clean this mess up. World War II, that overtly racial war, taught us that we've got to stop these inter-tribal hatreds. We've got to get away from the idea that one tribe is superior to another tribe. So we're going to throw out the Bible, which has all sorts of negative ideas in it, and start a new church in which all tribes will have equal respect. However, we are going to continue to call it Christianity. True, it will have nothing in common with Christianity as it was believed for 1950 years, give or take a few decades. The reason we call it Christianity is that if we pick a new name, it will sound like a cult. But an old church by definition is a respectable church, not a cult. So we will continue to call it Christianity. We're going to wipe out all prejudice, racial and otherwise, and we are going ferret out all those nay-sayers and nihilists and unsocialized persons, and we're going to send them to counseling and socialize them so that they will obtain self-love and become public-spirited and interactive with others, no matter what tribe the others belong to. It's going to be great."
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 5:04 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 8:16 AM robinrohan has replied
 Message 194 by Brian, posted 09-13-2006 1:07 PM robinrohan has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 178 of 301 (348681)
09-13-2006 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by robinrohan
09-13-2006 8:12 AM


Isn't this humanism by the back door?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by robinrohan, posted 09-13-2006 8:12 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 09-13-2006 8:22 AM iano has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 301 (348684)
09-13-2006 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by iano
09-13-2006 8:16 AM


Isn't this humanism by the back door?
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by iano, posted 09-13-2006 8:16 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 180 of 301 (348685)
09-13-2006 8:27 AM
Reply to: Message 179 by robinrohan
09-13-2006 8:22 AM


So we can now conclude that such New Agers are not Christians but are in fact religious humanists. It's one thing to say what a person isn't - far better to say what he is. Well observed Robin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by robinrohan, posted 09-13-2006 8:22 AM robinrohan has not replied

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