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Author Topic:   Politcally Correct Christ
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 91 of 301 (347160)
09-06-2006 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by robinrohan
09-06-2006 11:08 PM


Re: On translation
robinrohan writes:
... your (and Jar's) "interpretations" are even further from some fairly obvious meanings that the authors had in mind.
If the Bible was "God-breathed" into the shell-like ears of the authors, then what they "had in mind" is irrelevant - just as what my computer "has in mind" is irrelevant to this post.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by robinrohan, posted 09-06-2006 11:08 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 09-06-2006 11:29 PM ringo has replied
 Message 94 by Nighttrain, posted 09-07-2006 6:49 AM ringo has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 301 (347162)
09-06-2006 11:29 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-06-2006 11:26 PM


Re: On translation
If the Bible was "God-breathed" into the shell-like ears of the authors, then what they "had in mind" is irrelevant - just as what my computer "has in mind" is irrelevant to this post.
Do you believe that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 11:26 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 11:42 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 93 of 301 (347168)
09-06-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by robinrohan
09-06-2006 11:29 PM


Re: On translation
robinrohan writes:
If the Bible was "God-breathed" into the shell-like ears of the authors....
Do you believe that?
It doesn't matter if I believe it or not.
If God dictated the Bible, He can also dictate an interpretation to each and every one of us. The authors' cultural milieu is no more significant than our own. The message is what He speaks to us, just as He spoke it to them. The words are secondary.
On the other hand, if the authors just made it all up out of thin air, the "message" has more relevance to their culture than it does to ours. We can take out of it what we find relevant to our culture and minimize the rest.
Either way, from our point of view, our cultural context is more important than that of the authors.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by robinrohan, posted 09-06-2006 11:29 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 9:14 AM ringo has replied

Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 4020 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 94 of 301 (347223)
09-07-2006 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by ringo
09-06-2006 11:26 PM


Re: On translation
If the Bible was "God-breathed" into the shell-like ears of the authors, then what they "had in mind" is irrelevant - just as what my computer "has in mind" is irrelevant to this post.
And if the authors were writing in 'pesher' as outlined in the Qumran Scrolls, then any modern-day interpretation is up the creek sans paddle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 11:26 PM ringo has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 95 of 301 (347242)
09-07-2006 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by ringo
09-06-2006 11:42 PM


Re: On translation
If God dictated the Bible, He can also dictate an interpretation to each and every one of us. The authors' cultural milieu is no more significant than our own. The message is what He speaks to us, just as He spoke it to them. The words are secondary.
Oh, well, in that case we can interpret it any way we please, such as what follows.
Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed [it], and brake [it], and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
Mat 26:27 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave [it] to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
So if we adopt the interpretive philosophy outlined by you above, we might say something like this:
In the old days, they interpreted this passage as meaning that Jesus is going to die as payment for our sins. But God is giving me another message here, different from that old message. In this scene, we are symbolically eating God. Now what does this mean?
It means that God is getting inside of us and becoming a part of us, just as the potatoes we eat become a part of us. In the same way, the body and blood of Christ become us. Or another way of putting it is to say that we are becoming God. Through our various scientific advances, we can move things around real fast, and heat things up and cool things off real fast, and make complicated things out of many simple ingredients, and cure some diseases. In that way, we are becoming more and more Godlike. We are performing miracles. If we keep eating God, we will be able to do all of manner of things just as God does. God wants us to do this.
As regards that last bit about shedding the blood for the remissions of the sins of many, the new way of thinking of this is not that it is a propitiation. Notice that word "remission." If our taxes are remitted, it means we don't have to pay them. And so, in effect, we never had any taxes to begin with. Such is the meaning here. We never had any sins to begin with. What Jesus is saying is that this old idea that God expects payment for "sins" is nonsense. It's not a propitiation; it's an explanation of the new modern philosophy. The remission is that of the IDEA of sin, not sin per se. It is the "blood of the New Testament" that is being remitted--in other words, all those ancient ideas such as propitiation that were believed by the people who lived during the writing of the New Testament are hereby remitted.
That will do as well as another.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by ringo, posted 09-06-2006 11:42 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:19 AM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 301 (347261)
09-07-2006 11:19 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by robinrohan
09-07-2006 9:14 AM


robinrohan writes:
What Jesus is saying is that this old idea that God expects payment for "sins" is nonsense.
Exactly.
(You didn't think you made that up, did you? It's what I've been saying all along.)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 9:14 AM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 12:52 PM ringo has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 301 (347283)
09-07-2006 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:19 AM


(You didn't think you made that up, did you? It's what I've been saying all along.)
That was supposed to be an example of a very implausible interpretation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:19 AM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-07-2006 1:04 PM robinrohan has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 98 of 301 (347285)
09-07-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by robinrohan
09-07-2006 12:52 PM


Well, while there are a few things worthy of quibble in it, for the most part it is both reasonable and Biblically sound.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 12:52 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 1:08 PM jar has not replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 99 of 301 (347287)
09-07-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by jar
09-07-2006 1:04 PM


Well, while there are a few things worthy of quibble in it, for the most part it is both reasonable and Biblically sound.
You got to be kidding me. I just made that up.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by jar, posted 09-07-2006 1:04 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 1:21 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 100 of 301 (347291)
09-07-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by robinrohan
09-07-2006 1:08 PM


robinrohan writes:
I just made that up.
You really ought to read a few posts around here. I've said the exact same thing, in almost those exact words, probably a hundred times.
You feel free to criticize other people's views, but now you reveal the fact that you don't have a clue what those views are.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 1:08 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 1:29 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 101 of 301 (347293)
09-07-2006 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by ringo
09-07-2006 1:21 PM


I've said the exact same thing, in almost those exact words, probably a hundred times.
I was interpreting a particular passage not speaking generally of the New Testament. I have not seen your interpretation of that passage.
You feel free to criticize other people's views, but now you reveal the fact that you don't have a clue what those views are.
I deny that. I am very familiar with Jar's views. I have indeed summarized them at variious times. But I have never seen any interpretation by him of that particular passage of Matthew. You tend to be rather coy about your own views however. If you spell them out, I will know what they are.
Edited by robinrohan, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 1:21 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 1:41 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 102 of 301 (347294)
09-07-2006 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by robinrohan
09-07-2006 1:29 PM


robinrohan writes:
I was interpreting a particular passage not speaking generally of the New Testament.
Doesn't matter. Any reasonable interpretation should be somewhat consistent with the whole New Testament (not to mention the Old). The one you "made up" is.
You tend to be rather coy about your own views however. If you spell them out, I will know what they are.
I have two-thousand-odd posts where my views are spelled out in some detail.
Feel free to consult them.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 1:29 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 11:03 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 103 of 301 (347417)
09-07-2006 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by ringo
09-07-2006 1:41 PM


I have two-thousand-odd posts where my views are spelled out in some detail.
Feel free to consult them.
No, this won't do. You wouldn't even take a stand in the poll.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 1:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:13 PM robinrohan has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 104 of 301 (347426)
09-07-2006 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by robinrohan
09-07-2006 11:03 PM


robinrohan writes:
No, this won't do.
Boo hoo.
Do you have anything to say about the topic?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 11:03 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by robinrohan, posted 09-07-2006 11:21 PM ringo has replied

robinrohan
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 301 (347432)
09-07-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ringo
09-07-2006 11:13 PM


Do you have anything to say about the topic?
Declare your beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by ringo, posted 09-07-2006 11:29 PM robinrohan has replied

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