Drum's list of prophecies :)

This list deserved it own thread. Originally, Drummachine posted it here.My response will have to wait until tomorrow.ABRAHAM lived about 4000 years ago. He is the patriarch of many nations of people, including the Jews. He is the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob.
Genesis 12:2-3
The Jews would have a worldwide impact
Genesis 15:5
Counting Abraham's descendants would be like counting the stars
Genesis 15:18AMOS prophesized in Israel sometime around 750 BC - about 2750 years ago.
The Jews would have their own country
Amos 1:9-10
Tyre's fortresses would fail
Amos 9:11, 13
The ruins of Israel would be rebuilt
Amos 9:14-15
The Jews would regain control of IsraelDANIEL was among the Jews who were taken captive into Babylon about 2600 years ago. He rose to a high position in the Babylonian government. Daniel saw and described the great world empires that were to come. He also prophesied about a Messiah.
Daniel 2:32-33
Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms
Daniel 9:24-26
Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Daniel 9:26
Daniel foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the TempleEZEKIEL preached to Jews of the Babylonian captivity from 593 BC to 563 BC, according to the Bible's book of Ezekiel. The book discusses the fall of Jerusalem in 586 BC and contains many oracles of warning. He sometimes symbolically acted out his prophecies. He spoke about the restoration of Israel and the destruction of empires that sought to destroy Israel. Those empires, by the way, have been destroyed, and Israel today is being restored.
Ezekiel 4:3-6
Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Ezekiel 11:17
The Jews would have Israel as their country, again
Ezekiel 20:34
Ezekiel said the Jews would return to Israel
Ezekiel 22:14-15
The Jews would be scattered to other countries
Ezekiel 25:14
The Jews would avenge the Edomites
Ezekiel 26:3
Tyre would be attacked by many nations
Ezekiel 26:4
Tyre would be scraped and made bare
Ezekiel 26:7-9
Tyre's mainland would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar
Ezekiel 26:12
Tyre's stones, timber and soil would be cast into the sea
Ezekiel 26:21
Tyre would never again be found
Ezekiel 29:15
Egypt would never again rule over nations
Ezekiel 34:13
The Jews would return to "their own land"
Ezekiel 36:8-10
Israel would be restored and repopulated
Ezekiel 36:11
Ezekiel prophesied prosperity for a restored Israel
Ezekiel 36:24
Israel would be re-gathered
Ezekiel 36:33-35
Israel would be rebuilt and resettled
Ezekiel 37:10-14
Israel would be brought back to life
Ezekiel 37:15-19
The Jews again would be a united people
Ezekiel 37:21-22
Israel would be re-established as a united nationHOSEA prophesied about 2750 years ago, during the reigns of the last two kings of Israel, shortly before Israel was conquered by the Assyrian Empire. Hosea prophesied of the desolations that would result from being unfaithful to God, and of God's promise to restore Israel.
Hosea 3:4-5
The Jews would live many days without a king
Hosea 9:17
The Jews would be like wanderers in other nationsISAIAH lived in Jerusalem about 2700 years ago, during the time in which the Assyrian Empire conquered the northern part of the Jewish homeland. The book of Isaiah contains many prophecies that are interpreted by Christians (including us at this web site) as being about the Messiah Jesus Christ. Today, we can see with our own eyes that many of Isaiah's prophecies have found fulfillment with the worldwide dispersion of Jews, the worldwide persecution of Jews, the recent worldwide migration of Jews back to Israel during the past century, the recent re-establishment and restoration of Israel, and the worldwide impact that Jews have had on the world.
Isaiah 11:1-10
Nations would seek the counsel of Jesse's descendantIsaiah 13:17
Babylon would be attacked by the MedesIsaiah 13:19
Babylon's kingdom would be overthrown, permanentlyIsaiah 14:23
Babylon would be reduced to swamplandIsaiah 27:6
Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the worldIsaiah 27:12-13
God promised to restore the JewsIsaiah 35:1-2
Isaiah foretold the restoration of IsraelIsaiah 40:3
The Messiah would be preceded by a messengerIsaiah 41:18-20
Trees again would grow in IsraelIsaiah 42:1-9
Jesus' life was foreshadowed by the prophet IsaiahIsaiah 43:5-6
Isaiah foretold of the worldwide return of Jews to IsraelIsaiah 45:1
Babylon's gates would open for CyrusIsaiah 49:6
God's salvation would reach the ends of the earthIsaiah 51:3
Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of EdenIsaiah 53:3
The Messiah would suffer and be rejectedIsaiah 53:5
God's servant would be wounded and whippedIsaiah 53:7
God's servant would be silent before His accusersIsaiah 53:9
God's servant would be buried in a rich man's tombIsaiah 53:12
God's servant would be crucified with criminalsIsaiah 66:7-8
Isaiah spoke of a Israel being reborn in one dayIsaiah 66:22
Isaiah said God would preserve the JewsJACOB was the grandson of Abraham and the father of the 12 Tribes of Israel. He was given a vision by God of Israel's future that proved to be accurate - that the Jews would establish their own nation, that they would be scattered like dust to the ends of the earth, that they would have a worldwide impact, and that they would one day return to their homeland. All of these things have happened since.
Genesis 28:10-15
Jacob saw a vision of Israel's futureGenesis 35:9-12
Jacob's descendants (the Jews) would inherit the land of IsraelGenesis 49:10
The Messiah would come from the tribe of JudahThis is just a few.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Very impressive, Drum.BUT ...So God preserved all the Jews who died in German concentration camps?The re-establishment of Israel appears over and over, but it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If I prophesized that my wife would make me a cup of tea, and she heard this and promptly did so, am I a prophet? The Zionists have been battling to fulfil this prophecy for ages. That they finally succeeded does not prove that prophecy was inspired.Many prophecies about Jesus cannot be trusted, because the gospel writers may have adapted the 'facts' to fit the prophecies, just to 'prove' that their Jesus was the predicted messiah.Of course, each prophet would have known all the prophecies of the previous prophets. So many of these cannot be listed as independent cases, but just as repetition.So we cannot take this list of fulfilled prophecies at face value. They need further evaluation.Mike.[This message has been edited by Mike Holland, 04-02-2003]

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ABRAHAM lived about 4000 years ago. He is the patriarch of many nations of people, including the Jews. He is the father of Isaac and the grandfather of Jacob.

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And his history was written many hundreds of years after his ( supposed ) life. That is, historical fiction is not prophecy. Or, if you prefer, history is not prophecy.

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Genesis 12:2-3
The Jews would have a worldwide impact

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You can find these kinds of predictions all over the place. It is part and parcel to mythology-- kinda like psyching up the home team at a pep rally. Three thousand years ago, you could have made this assertion about any of a hundred cultures and it would have been true.

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Counting Abraham's descendants would be like counting the stars
Genesis 15:18

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And Abe's descendants number in the hundreds of hundreds of hundreds of trillions? Seriously, this is a typical claim made about the mythological founders of many cultures. It doesn't mean much. And lets not forget that it is just a claim. How do we know that it has in fact turned out to be true? We don't. We don't have any evidence tracing millions of people back to one man a few thousand years ago. We don't know, even, that this man actually existed.

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The Jews would have their own country
Amos 1:9-10

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I think your citation is incorrect. I can't find anything about the Jews having a country.

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Tyre's fortresses would fail

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Tyre has been discussed at length in another thread. Perhaps you'd be interested in reading through it? EvC Forum: What Science is NOT

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also prophesied about a Messiah.
Daniel 2:32-33

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I don't recall that the Jesus of the NT was ever described like that. In other words, you've got to be joking. Or maybe this was about the four great kingdoms? It is really hard to tell with the way you have this formatted. But what four great kingdoms? Between then an now, I could name a couple of dozen.

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Daniel 9:24-26
Daniel predicted when an anointed one would be rejected
Daniel 9:26
Daniel foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple

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Actually, this appears to be a case of a prophecy that was decidedly not fullfilled. There is a strict timeline and it is long before Jesus ever walked the streets. There is also this bit about a flood, which never happened.

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Isaiah 11:1-10
Nations would seek the counsel of Jesse's descendant

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And? The same is true for tens of thousands of people. Representatives of religion always council people in government-- not that this is a good thing.

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Isaiah 13:17
Babylon would be attacked by the Medes

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I believe that a perusal of history will show that this was happening all the time anyway. In other words, this is a no-brainer.

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Isaiah 14:23
Babylon would be reduced to swampland

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ummm.... it isn't. We are fighting a war in the general vicinity of what used to be babylon. Does that look like swamp to you?

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Isaiah 27:6
Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world

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What percentage of the world populatin do you think Jews account for? I found an estimate at 13 million. That works out to somewhere between .00216 and .0026 of the global population. Do you truly consider this to be "filling the world?" Come on, think about this stuff.

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Isaiah 41:18-20
Trees again would grow in Israel

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Pretty sure they never stopped growing in Isreal.

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Isaiah 45:1
Babylon's gates would open for Cyrus

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How do we know this is talking about Babylon? And Babylon didn't simply open the gates anyway. [url]No webpage found at provided URL: http://www.art-arena.com/cyrus2.htm[/b]http://www.art-arena.com/cyrus2.htm[/b][/b]http://www.art-arena.com/cyrus2.htm[/b][/b]http://www.art-arena.com/cyrus2.htm[/b][/quote]

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Isaiah 51:3
Israel's deserts will become like the Garden of Eden

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That was a barren garden then. Granted, massive use of technology has greened the place up, but the Garden of Eden? Come on...

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Isaiah 53:3
The Messiah would suffer and be rejected

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Do you think the writers of the NT were not aware of Isaiah? And do you think they were not concerned with the status of their messiah? It is quite reasonable to assume that the account is tainted. You'd agree if the prophecy concerned any but your own god.Gotta go... hasta la vista------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

Here are a few examples that are more in depth.

[Lengthy excerpt from AboutBibleProphecy.com deleted. --Admin]

[This message has been edited by Admin, 04-02-2003]

Lets talk about the flood after this if thats okay?

[Lengthy excerpt from AboutBibleProphecy.com deleted. --Admin]

[This message has been edited by Admin, 04-03-2003]

Admin,What is the problem? That post was not that long. John is asking questions about these things. What if others post things like this. Will you delete those?

Well there are lot of problems with what you write.Firstly the Greek empire of Alexander and the successor states as described in Daniel fit the legs best. Daniel only indirectly mentions Rome at all.A better interpretation would make the Medes the arms and the Persians the body.Another problem is that historically the Medes were conquered by the Persians and then the Persians conquered Babylon. SO Isaiah's prophecy failed and Daniel is incorrect on history that Daniel supposely witnessed.And here we reach th biggest problem with Daniel as prophecy. The mainstream view of Biblical scholarship is that Daniel was written during the reign of Antiocus Epiphanes and so the accurate "prophecies" were written AFTER the events.There is more, but that will do for now.

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Daniel predicted the four great kingdoms
Bible passage: Daniel 2:32-33
Prophet: Daniel
Written: about 530 BC
Fulfilled: End Times

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Paulk addressed this one nicely, but my objection is much more simple. Given that 2530, plus or minus, years have passed since Daniel was written, there are dozens of 'great kingdoms' from which to choose. Thus, Daniel can't loose with this one. It is a bit like saying, "You'll roll a six on that die-- eventually." You can't loose, but it hardly proves anything.

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Daniel foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple
Bible passage: Daniel 9:26
Prophet: Daniel
Written: about 530 BC
Fulfilled: 70 AD

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The US will be conquered by a foreign power sometime after a great president dies. Give this enough time and circumstances will prove me a prophet. But does it prove anything? Nope. This is another one that cannot be wrong. That is problem with most of the prophecies you present. They are fuzzy.

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Babylon would be attacked by the Medes
Bible passage: Isaiah 13:17
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 539 BC

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Pick a couple of neighboring countries, predict that one will attack the other-- particularly when they have a history of conflict-- and wait. You too can be a prophet!!!! It means nothing.

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Babylon would be reduced to swampland
Bible passage: Isaiah 14:23
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: 539 BC

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ummm.... Babylon is not swampland. I mentioned this in my previous post to you. Did you not read it? Babylon was located in what is now Iraq, or thereabout. Watch the news. Does that look like swampland? It appears that the mention of a high water table is meant to validate the "swampland" bit. Think about it. How deep is the water table where you live? Where I live, it isn't all that terribly far down, but it does not follow that I live in a swamp.

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Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world
Bible passage: Isaiah 27:6
Prophet: Isaiah
Written: perhaps between 701-681 BC
Fulfilled: late 1900s

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Pick any chunk of the world, wait 2000 years, and "its fruits will have filled the world" in some arguable sense or other. This is too fuzzy and the time-frame is too broad. The same with the rest of the predictions about Israel.Now lets talk about self-fullfillment. If you were to read a book, and work to make the events outlined in the book come true, does that make the book prophetic? Not hardly. Think of the communist manifesto. Was that prophetic? Or Mein Kampf? Prophecy or just books that people believed in and made, in a sense, come true.------------------
No webpage found at provided URL: www.hells-handmaiden.com

This beggars belief! Absolutely lost for words! ROFLMAODoes this mean that Jesus was a carpenter without any wood? No wonder he had so much time on his hands that he managed to make up fairy tales!------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Drum,Maybe the problem with admin is that they do not see you as actually doing any debating, all you are really doing is simply cutting and pasting from other websites. Now, regardless of how long the text is, this isn't really you thats doing the debating, you are putting none of your own thoughts into your posts at all.Maybe you should look at these sites, decide what you think is a good argument, research it for a couple of hours, and check that what you have read is actually accurate.Here's an example of what I am getting at. This is totally incorrect and if you had researched this for even one minute you would have found out that it is incorrect and deleted it from your post.Although the Romans used crucifixion, and were perhaps better at it than any one else, the Persians were crucifying people c. 400 AD. If you do not have ready access to a library do a websearch on 'google'for "cricifixion was invented".Now, what you have to ask yourself is: 'if this website is wrong about such a simple thing as this, what else have they got wrong?"I will answer your 'prophecies' in more detail soon but I am at work right now and do not have the time.Take care Drum.Brian.------------------
Remembering events that never happened is a dangerous thing!

Hi Drum,Please do not post lengthy cut-n-pastes, especially of material readily available on the web. Rather, use a link to reference them and tie them into your argument in some accompanying discussion.Also, you neglected to provide attribution. From the Forum Guidelines:

6. Never include material not your own without attribution to the original source.

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--EvC Forum Administrator

Admin,I will start putting a link. No problem.Brian,The only reason I cut and paste is because its what I believe. I'll try to think on my own now. Psalm 22 is where it talks about crucifixion and Isaiah 53. King David wrote Psalm 22 3,000 years ago. Christ was crucified almost 2,000 years ago. Around 30 AD. And about Israel becoming green and trees growing. If you look at the history of Israel before 1948 it was a barren wasteland. Since they were declared a nation things have radically changed. They sale flowers to Holland for example. They have skyscrapers. In fact they have started going back to the ancient ways of gardening. Scientists have reasearched this and have shown that it is more productive. In case Schrafinator is still here this is my conclusion about creation/evolution plain and simple. Have a good day.Divine Creation or Spontaneous Generation
Purposeful Design or Random Accidental Order
Intricate Order or Chaotic Mistakes
Infinite God or Infinite Odds
Life from Life or Life from Non-life
God=Creator or Time=Creator
Entropy or Evolution
Catastrophe or Gradualism
True Bible or True Theories
God's Purpose or No Purpose
Absolutes Exist or Everything Is Relative
Mutations Are Harmful or Some Mutations Are Beneficial
Relatively Young Earth or Extremely Old Earth
Civilization from Start or Slow Development of Civilization
Degenerate Man or Man Getting Better
A Future Hope or Hopelessness[This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-03-2003][This message has been edited by drummachine, 04-03-2003]

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Isaiah 27:6
Isaiah said Israel's fruit would fill the world
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What percentage of the world populatin do you think Jews account for? I found an estimate at 13 million. That works out to somewhere between .00216 and .0026 of the global population. Do you truly consider this to be "filling the world?" Come on, think about this stuff.

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Well, as Max Dimont puts it
"If a man views Jewish achievement through materialistic eyes, seeing only insignificant minority in possession of a little land and a few battalions, this will seem improbable. It will not seem improbable if man discards the blinkers of prejudice and views the world not as a "thing" but as an "idea". Then he may see that two thirds of the civilized world is already governed by the ideas of Jews. The ideas of Moses, Jesus, Paul, Spinoza, Marx, Freud, Einstein".(to name a few!)Isaiah says that the "friut" will fill the world, not Jews. So what if the whole world is filled with the "fruit" of Jews? As Isaiah puts it "Peace, Peace, to him that is far off and to him that is near"

Is this how you believe the ancient Israelites interpreted Isaiah 27? Not that their descendents would fill the world, not that they would become the world's fruit merchants, but that their ideas and philosophy would fill the world? I don't think they interpreted this passage that way. And of what value is a prophecy whose meaning isn't understood except with hindsight. In fact, vagueness is a necessity with prophecy. The best prophecy is that which is correct no matter what happens.If you read all of Isaiah 27, including the song beginning at 27:2, it is clear that a metaphor is in use: This song is immediately followed by Isaiah 27:6: In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.Clearly fruit is a metaphor for progeny, and certainly the ancient Israelites would have interpreted it that way.--Percy

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Clearly fruit is metaphor for progeny and certainly the ancient Israelites would have interpreted it that way

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Are you aware that with that statement you just prove me right? Open Dictionary (or just go to http://www.dictionary.com) and look up word Progeny, you'll see the following:1. One born of, begotten by, or derived from another; an offspring or a descendant. Offspring or descendants considered as a group.2. A result of creative effort; a product.What is a result of creative effort? Might it be an idea or thought? A product of a nation might indeed be it's descendants, however it's not limited to that. Do Nations produce ideas, belife structures, moral codecs, etc.? I certainly think so.

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I don't think they interpreted this passage that way

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To say more, it really doesn't matter how ancient Isreailites, or early Christians, or Mideval Knights interpreted this passage. The fact is that Jewish creative process lead to many ideas in different fields of knowledge. This ideas play huge role in western civilization at this time, be it religious or scientific. Isaiah wrote what he proficised, only he knows for sure what it all means. Ancient Israelites and everybody else including us, few thousand years latter can only interpret. Nothing is certain here!And again, if you take materialistic aproach, you interpret the profecy as decendants, if you disregard materialism, you might open your mind to other possibilities....[This message has been edited by TheOne, 04-14-2003]