Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 88 (8890 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 02-16-2019 8:37 AM
176 online now:
caffeine, JonF, Percy (Admin), RAZD, Tangle (5 members, 171 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 847,562 Year: 2,599/19,786 Month: 681/1,918 Week: 269/266 Day: 6/35 Hour: 3/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1011
12
13141516Next
Author Topic:   What I have noticed about these debates...
A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 238 (52191)
08-25-2003 4:51 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 4:06 PM


Crashfrog:

That is a preposterous statement. It is creationism that has been
excluded from most public school discussions simply because the
students have heard no mention of it while studying science, history,
or social studies.

The "Christian" schools; on the other hand, do invite discussion
and try to explain the origin of evolution and attempt an honest
balance.

How do you get a student to investigate data if one is lead to believe
that ALL the data has already been correctly pondered and Evolution
is FACT? The case is closed and the student memorizes the chapter.
That isn't science.

The ACLU wants no public mention of GOD. They feel (rightly so) that
Creationism offers evidence supporting Biblical history (even though
no mention of GOD needs to be stated).

It is EVOLUTION that gets State promotion, funding (even Christian
tax dollars), and is declared as fact. Even old charts that are
out dated are still being promoted as solid. And yet Creationism
gets no atheist's tax funding nor state sponcership through
scholarship studies. It has been an uphill battle for Creationists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 4:06 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 5:20 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:22 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 180 by truthlover, posted 08-25-2003 10:54 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 196 by nator, posted 08-26-2003 11:22 AM A_Christian has not yet responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 238 (52194)
08-25-2003 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 4:51 PM


quote:
That is a preposterous statement. It is creationism that has been
excluded from most public school discussions simply because the
students have heard no mention of it while studying science, history,
or social studies.

The "Christian" schools; on the other hand, do invite discussion
and try to explain the origin of evolution and attempt an honest
balance.

How do you get a student to investigate data if one is lead to believe
that ALL the data has already been correctly pondered and Evolution
is FACT? The case is closed and the student memorizes the chapter.
That isn't science.


Exactly what data do you feel should be culled from the Judeo-Christian creation myth in order to give children all the facts?

quote:
The ACLU wants no public mention of GOD. They feel (rightly so) that Creationism offers evidence supporting Biblical history (even though no mention of GOD needs to be stated).

"Public mention of God" is not their problem. Government endorsement of religion is what they're against.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 4:51 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 238 (52195)
08-25-2003 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 4:51 PM


How do you get a student to investigate data if one is lead to believe
that ALL the data has already been correctly pondered and Evolution
is FACT? The case is closed and the student memorizes the chapter.
That isn't science.

Hey, here's a heads-up, AC - science is hard. It's generally too hard for 14-year-olds to do. Quite frankly, at that age, students should just take notes and memorize, because they just don't have the background to really assess the data.

On the other hand, the scientific method is easily accessable. I'm all in favor of exploring questions using the scientific method. But is it really appropriate to ask grade-schoolers to pick an origin story? Let's just tell them what the evidence points to, shall we? (It's not creationism, I'm afraid.)

And for that matter, when I was a creationist at that age, guess what? I couldn't have discussions in the classroom with the teacher. Why? Not because my viewpoint was being silenced, but rather, because the teacher simply didn't know enough about evolution to talk about it. The problem isn't teachers lording the scientific viewpoint over the creationist students. It's that the teachers don't know enough science to teach anything that's not in the textbook.

We need more evolutionists in the classroom, not less. Only then can the discussion you seek even occur.

The ACLU wants no public mention of GOD.

To the contrary. They support the rights of all believers to worship as they please - and the rights of atheists not to be made to worship.

What they really don't like, and what the Constitution prohibits, is the suggestion that our government favors or otherwise puts special approval on any particular religious tradition. For instance, a public shrine, on government property, dedicated to a specific religion - like this Ten Commandments business. I mean, if you support the Ten Commandments shrine on the statehouse grounds, then I assume you won't mind if I enshrine the Koran right next to it?

And yet Creationism
gets no atheist's tax funding nor state sponcership through
scholarship studies. It has been an uphill battle for Creationists.

What? Sure it is. Bush's public funding for faith-based charities, for instance. That's as obvious a public funding for religion that our constitution allows, I think.

After all, you're hampered by the fact that we live in America. Science isn't religion. (As evidenced by the fact that persons of all religion do science.) But creationism is religion, because creationists are always Christians. And guess what? We can't publicly fund religion because it's unconstitutional. Which is just fine with me.

Now, does anyone want to tell me what a "kind" is? And why they are immutable? And how I'm supposed to tell the difference between two kinds? Or does anyone on the other side want to add to the pot? We're at $1.50 US, here.

[This message has been edited by crashfrog, 08-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 4:51 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-25-2003 5:38 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 08-25-2003 5:39 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 179 by nator, posted 08-25-2003 10:27 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 181 by truthlover, posted 08-25-2003 11:05 PM crashfrog has not yet responded
 Message 183 by jcgirl92, posted 08-26-2003 4:23 AM crashfrog has responded

  
Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 169 of 238 (52200)
08-25-2003 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 5:22 PM


quote:
What? Sure it is. Bush's public funding for faith-based charities, for instance. That's as obvious a public funding for religion that our constitution allows, I think.

I'm not even sure how much of it is actually allowed by our constitution. What was the final decision on the Salvation Army's hiring practices?

Which leads to a key point for A Christian. Trust me, A_C, you really don't want separation of church and state to go away. It's not just there to protect the state from the church. It protects the church from the state as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:22 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3002 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 170 of 238 (52201)
08-25-2003 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 5:22 PM


HI crash,

Can I just lend my support to this claim:

Hey, here's a heads-up, AC - science is hard. It's generally too hard for 14-year-olds to do. Quite frankly, at that age, students should just take notes and memorize, because they just don't have the background to really assess the data.

If I could just present the same argument but from my own subject area.

Last Thursday and today, I was teaching 12 and 13 year old children about Judaism. It was an introductory lesson and mainly focussed on Abraham, Jacob, Joseph and the whole origins of the origins of Israel, from the Bible accounts.

In few weeks time I am going to be assisting with teaching a university course on the Old Testament. We are obviously going to cover the primary history period there as well, but you can bet your last dollar that there wil be a vast difference in the content of the courses.

At a young age it has to be kept simple, Piaget calls it concrete as opposed to abstact. These kids do not have the intellectual capacity to study these topics to a high level, it has to be kept basic, it is the teacher who has done all the spade work and he passes his knowledge onto his students, Armed with this background knowledge it gives them a foundation to build on, and I can assure anyone reading this that children are not robots, they can think for themselves and give a variety of comments during lessons, but these comments are based on a limited understanding, after all they are only kids.

Creationists seem to think that creation isnt taught in high schools, but it is. It is taught everyday in religious studies departments all over the world, because that is where it belongs. I have done a bit of co-op teaching in science classes and if the students do not get to do some practical work they are extremely disappointed, what experiments could these kids do in a creation science class?

In evolution classes I assume that they can examine fossils, or pictures of them, or they can examine DNA results, what could they examine in a creation science class? maybe they could draw a picture of Adam and Eve and colour it in, or maybe they could examine the conflicting accounts in the book of Genesis that exists between different versions of the Bible, I really do not know what scientific experiments kids at high school cold do to make the subject interesting and to make it different from what they learn in Religious Studies classes.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:22 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:40 PM Brian has responded
 Message 173 by Percy, posted 08-25-2003 8:18 PM Brian has responded

    
A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 171 of 238 (52216)
08-25-2003 6:40 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Brian
08-25-2003 5:39 PM


Well, it seems to me that there is no proof of any intermediate species development for the Cambrian explosion when fully developed species just POP into existance.

The way the vast majority of all fossiles formed was very quickly
under extreem pressure and in mud & water.

The charts that appear in science books that demonstrate evolution
through the the embryonic stages are actually a hoax.

Scientific study and experimentation belongs in a science class.
Evolution belongs in a "religious" class under belief systems.

ALL traces of DNA will disappear under adverse conditions or within
8 THOUSAND years (whatever comes 1st).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 08-25-2003 5:39 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Brian, posted 08-25-2003 7:01 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 175 by mark24, posted 08-25-2003 8:50 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 177 by Coragyps, posted 08-25-2003 9:28 PM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 184 by DBlevins, posted 08-26-2003 4:33 AM A_Christian has not yet responded
 Message 188 by Mammuthus, posted 08-26-2003 5:00 AM A_Christian has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3002 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 172 of 238 (52219)
08-25-2003 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:40 PM


Hi,

Well, it seems to me that there is no proof of any intermediate species development for the Cambrian explosion when fully developed species just POP into existance.

Can you give references for these claims, which species POP into existence for example, are there no precambrian fossils?

The way the vast majority of all fossiles formed was very quickly
under extreem pressure and in mud & water.

SO the ones that werent formed this way were formed in which way. You say the vast majority of fossils, that means that there are some that weren't formed this way.

Also, can you give supporting references for this claim, I am interested in following it up?

The charts that appear in science books that demonstrate evolution through the the embryonic stages are actually a hoax.

Which charts and in which science books please, can you tell me their title and authors so I can verify your claims?

Scientific study and experimentation belongs in a science class.
Evolution belongs in a "religious" class under belief systems.

Again, can you provide evidence that evolution cannot be studied scientifically and that no experiments are possible to demonstrate evolution at work?

ALL traces of DNA will disappear under adverse conditions or within 8 THOUSAND years (whatever comes 1st).

References please so I can examine them myself, because I really do doubt this.

I am no scientist, but the reference to 8000 years is utter garbage, changes in DNA can be detected between a single generation.

Every single thing you claim here is an unsupported assertion, you have posted a list of 'facts' that have no references to support them. Should I just take your word for it or are you going to support your claims with some examniable sources ?

Oh and please do not say visit answersingenesis, I would like YOUR input please.

Brian.

PS, almost forgot, what scientific experiments could be done in a creation science class?

[This message has been edited by Brian, 08-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:40 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18247
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 173 of 238 (52226)
08-25-2003 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 170 by Brian
08-25-2003 5:39 PM


Hi Brian,

I agree with most of your post, but I have a different opinion about experimentation and Creationism.

First, I don't believe any science should be excluded that doesn't lend itself to classroom experimentation.

And second, I think there *are* experiments Creationists could do. They could build models of the ark and put them in wave tanks to study seaworthiness. They could do animal studies on consumption and excretion to understand the problems of keeping the animals on the ark. They could build model terrains and flood them in order to study the effects. They could churn sediments that include tiny fossil models to see how orderly they settle out. Unfortunately the results of such experiments would tend to contradict their religious beliefs, but they could still do them.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Brian, posted 08-25-2003 5:39 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Brian, posted 08-26-2003 7:58 AM Percy has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 174 of 238 (52227)
08-25-2003 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Admin
08-25-2003 3:10 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines Advisory
Percy,

Fair enough, but what's good for the goose...

Mark

------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Admin, posted 08-25-2003 3:10 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Admin, posted 08-25-2003 8:54 PM mark24 has responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 175 of 238 (52228)
08-25-2003 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:40 PM


AC,

Well, it seems to me that there is no proof of any intermediate species development for the Cambrian explosion when fully developed species just POP into existance.

Do you mean Phyla, or species, or any other taxonomic rank? Do you even unsderstand the argument you are making? Make your claim as clear as possible, start a new thread, & we'll have at it!

The way the vast majority of all fossiles formed was very quickly
under extreem pressure and in mud & water.

? Er, that's not what the evidence suggests at all. Evidence please.

The charts that appear in science books that demonstrate evolution
through the the embryonic stages are actually a hoax.

Haeckels drawings were fake, but the details were true. Human embryo's have tails, mammalian jaw bones begin as several components, the bones in question migrate to the ear region where they become the malleus & incus, as indicated in the fossil record, etc, etc.

Scientific study and experimentation belongs in a science class.
Evolution belongs in a "religious" class under belief systems.

True, but only if evolution fails to meet the standards of the scientific method, which it actually DOES meet. So sorry, religion remains mumbo jumbo, & evolution remains science.

ALL traces of DNA will disappear under adverse conditions or within
8 THOUSAND years (whatever comes 1st).

You gave one value, 8k years. That comes first AND last, surely? What was the other option? DNA, provided it doesn't become hydrolysed & oxidised can survive a lot longer, even if it is only fragmentory.

Mark

[This message has been edited by mark24, 08-25-2003]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:40 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12578
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 176 of 238 (52229)
08-25-2003 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by mark24
08-25-2003 8:29 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines Advisory
mark24 writes:

Fair enough, but what's good for the goose...

Don't feel singled out - I have a feeling you hadn't read down as far as my first advisory, which was addressed to no one in particular. But your post occurred after the advisory, so the next one went to you. No big deal, the advisory was for everyone in the zoo.

------------------

--Percy
EvC Forum Administrator

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by mark24, posted 08-25-2003 8:29 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by mark24, posted 08-25-2003 9:29 PM Admin has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5375
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 177 of 238 (52230)
08-25-2003 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 6:40 PM


ALL traces of DNA will disappear under adverse conditions or within
8 THOUSAND years (whatever comes 1st).

Nope.
Genetic analyses of permafrost and temperate sediments reveal that plant and animal DNA may be preserved for long periods, even in the absence of obvious macrofossils. In Siberia, five permafrost cores ranging from 400,000 to 10,000 years old contained at least 19 different plant taxa, including the oldest authenticated ancient DNA sequences known, and megafaunal sequences including mammoth, bison, and horse. The genetic data record a number of dramatic changes in the taxonomic diversity and composition of Beringian vegetation and fauna. Temperate cave sediments in New Zealand also yielded DNA sequences of extinct biota, including two species of ratite moa, and 29 plant taxa characteristic of the prehuman environment. Therefore, many sedimentary deposits may contain unique, and widespread, genetic records of paleoenvironments.

From Willerslev, et al., Science, Vol. 300, Issue 5620, 791-795, May 2, 2003
400,000 = 8000 x 50 in my book.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 6:40 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

    
mark24
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 178 of 238 (52231)
08-25-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by Admin
08-25-2003 8:54 PM


Re: Forum Guidelines Advisory
Hi Percy,

I guessed as much, trust me, I'm not that paranoid, yet! When they catch me, then it'll be a different matter....

Mark

------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Admin, posted 08-25-2003 8:54 PM Admin has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 179 of 238 (52237)
08-25-2003 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by crashfrog
08-25-2003 5:22 PM


quote:
Now, does anyone want to tell me what a "kind" is? And why they are immutable? And how I'm supposed to tell the difference between two kinds? Or does anyone on the other side want to add to the pot? We're at $1.50 US, here.

I'll put up $5.00.

Now it's looking pretty sweet, huh?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by crashfrog, posted 08-25-2003 5:22 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by truthlover, posted 08-25-2003 11:17 PM nator has not yet responded

    
truthlover
Member (Idle past 2102 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 180 of 238 (52240)
08-25-2003 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by A_Christian
08-25-2003 4:51 PM


The "Christian" schools; on the other hand, do invite discussion
and try to explain the origin of evolution and attempt an honest
balance.

ROFLOL!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by A_Christian, posted 08-25-2003 4:51 PM A_Christian has not yet responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1011
12
13141516Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019