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Author
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Topic: What Is The Holy Spirit
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 5802 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 3.1
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Message 136 of 176 (883853)
01-15-2021 12:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 132 by Phat
01-15-2021 10:35 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
My porn doesn't involve underaged virgins getting bonked. Gotta read the bible for that. So you think your holy polterghost showed up in her bedroom one night and said, "I'm gonna fuck you." and she just said "Sure."? Or maybe she cried "Take me! Take me! Take me!" since Joseph was kinda square about these things and only did oral. Also, in the early days of the church the holy spirit was a feminine polterghost. Guess they had a little lezzy action going on?
Factio Republicana delenda est. I am antifa.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 132 by Phat, posted 01-15-2021 10:35 AM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-15-2021 3:35 PM | | AZPaul3 has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 137 of 176 (883854)
01-15-2021 3:35 PM
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Reply to: Message 136 by AZPaul3
01-15-2021 12:06 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
| SleazyPaul3 writes: So you think your holy polterghost showed up in her bedroom one night and said, "I'm gonna fuck you." and she just said "Sure."? Or maybe she cried "Take me! Take me! Take me!" since Joseph was kinda square about these things and only did oral. |
The authors of Matthew describe it this way: | Matt 1:18-2:1 writes: 18 This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly. 20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins." 22 All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23 "The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel"-which means, "God with us." 24 When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. |
One could argue that Mary had no say in the matter and that by calling the baby Jesus instead of Immanuel Joseph relied on the dream more than the words of the early prophecy. I will continue after my 8 hour shift at work. Gotta run. 
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 136 by AZPaul3, posted 01-15-2021 12:06 PM | | AZPaul3 has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2021 5:47 PM | | Phat has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 138 of 176 (883855)
01-15-2021 3:40 PM
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Reply to: Message 133 by jar
01-15-2021 10:37 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
| jar writes: Now see it you can try to explain what the Holy Spirit is in any Trinitarian universe. |
It appears that your question assumed the universe to be Trinitarian. I was only responding to that.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 133 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 10:37 AM | | jar has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 139 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 3:45 PM | | Phat has responded |
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jar
Member Posts: 33329 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004 Member Rating: 3.0
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Message 139 of 176 (883861)
01-15-2021 3:45 PM
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Reply to: Message 138 by Phat
01-15-2021 3:40 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
But what you presented was anathema under Trinitarian dogma.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 138 by Phat, posted 01-15-2021 3:40 PM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 140 by Phat, posted 01-16-2021 2:27 PM | | jar has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 140 of 176 (883881)
01-16-2021 2:27 PM
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Reply to: Message 139 by jar
01-15-2021 3:45 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Really? Are you saying that the Orthodox Church was not Trinitarian? Or are you simply making an argument from the perspective of Non-Trinitarians?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 139 by jar, posted 01-15-2021 3:45 PM | | jar has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 141 by jar, posted 01-16-2021 3:08 PM | | Phat has responded |
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jar
Member Posts: 33329 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004 Member Rating: 3.0
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Message 141 of 176 (883883)
01-16-2021 3:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
01-16-2021 2:27 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
No Phat, I am saying what you describe is not Trinitarian but rather blasphemy. And of course the early orthodox church was not Trinitarian. Trinitaranism evolved long after the early church.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 140 by Phat, posted 01-16-2021 2:27 PM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 142 by Phat, posted 01-16-2021 3:17 PM | | jar has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 142 of 176 (883884)
01-16-2021 3:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 141 by jar
01-16-2021 3:08 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
| jar writes: The topic is "What is the Holy Ghost" and so far the only attempt to explain it is as some undefined aspect of god which is of course an explanation that got folk excommunicated and in fact killed. |
Duly noted. I'll have to study more church history. | You claim there is only one God yet there are three separate and individual critters who are each God. Fact: 1 + 1 + 1 != 1 (a ! means 'not') |
And 1x1x1=1. Whats your point? In fact, since you bring up church history, lets resume our argument here: Message 7 Lest our audience is confused about the position you take, allow me to remind you.
| jar writes: All of the evidence Phat shows that any God or god that humans can describe is simply the product of human imagination and exists only as long as humans believe in that God or god. |
Thus I am assuming that in a "Trinitarian Universe"...which to me is a word salad term, you mean that this "Trinitarian Universe exists only within my imagination. You claim to be a believer and have the badge to prove it, but you go on to say this: | jar writes: Reality and evidence though do trump belief and fantasy. |
Thus it appears that you shoot yourself in the foot by claiming to be a believer on one hand yet arguing in favor of lack of evidence as trumping belief. We all agree that you have read the Bible, so lets go to the Gospel of Mark.
| Mark 1:1-11 writes: The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. 2 As it is written in the Prophets:
"Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You."
3'The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
'Prepare the way of the LORD;
Make His paths straight.'" 4 John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 Then all the land of Judea, and those from Jerusalem, went out to him and were all baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel's hair and with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying,"There comes One after me who is mightier than I, whose sandal strap I am not worthy to stoop down and loose. 8 I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." |
We all know that churches baptize with wateer...be it a sprinkle or a dunking. John the Baptist is referring to Jesus Christ and mentions that Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit. | It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven,"You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." NKJV |
So here we see a voice from the Heavens(GOD?) Jesus getting dunked and a Spirit descending on Him like a dove.(The Holy Spirit?) And perhaps the question here is what the author intended for us to see. Was it just an old crazy prophet dunking Jesus in a river? Did John or any onlookers hear a voice?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 141 by jar, posted 01-16-2021 3:08 PM | | jar has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 143 by jar, posted 01-16-2021 4:25 PM | | Phat has responded |
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jar
Member Posts: 33329 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004 Member Rating: 3.0
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Message 143 of 176 (883889)
01-16-2021 4:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 142 by Phat
01-16-2021 3:17 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
Sheesh Phat. There is simply NOTHING in your post that has anything to do with the topic.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 142 by Phat, posted 01-16-2021 3:17 PM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 145 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 4:19 AM | | jar has responded |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 5802 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 3.1
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Message 144 of 176 (883890)
01-16-2021 5:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
01-15-2021 3:35 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
I guess that is why Christians like this story so much. It leaves a lot to the imagination. For instance, mine. I can imagine a whole lot of priests got a whole lot of benefit from it, human imagination being what it is.
Factio Republicana delenda est. I am antifa.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 137 by Phat, posted 01-15-2021 3:35 PM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 146 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 4:24 AM | | AZPaul3 has not yet responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 145 of 176 (883896)
01-17-2021 4:19 AM
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Reply to: Message 143 by jar
01-16-2021 4:25 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
So you claim. Yet you are not the one framing the topic. Lets look again at Mark 1:10.
10 And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove. 11 Then a voice came from heaven,"You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." NKJV What was the author describing?
What is the "Spirit" in this sentence?
Where did this Spirit come from?
WHO spoke?Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 143 by jar, posted 01-16-2021 4:25 PM | | jar has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 147 by jar, posted 01-17-2021 6:51 AM | | Phat has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 146 of 176 (883897)
01-17-2021 4:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 144 by AZPaul3
01-16-2021 5:47 PM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
You can imagine anything that you like. Or rather...that IT likes. Or you can submit your imagination under the discipline of the Holy Spirit. The choice and responsibility are yours.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 144 by AZPaul3, posted 01-16-2021 5:47 PM | | AZPaul3 has not yet responded |
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jar
Member Posts: 33329 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004 Member Rating: 3.0
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Message 147 of 176 (883901)
01-17-2021 6:51 AM
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Reply to: Message 145 by Phat
01-17-2021 4:19 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
No one knows Phat; other than flowery writing by some unknown author, editor or redactor. AbE:add translator /AbE It is an attempt at poetry and has no meaning beyond whatever the words conjure in the hearers individual mind. AbE: This is the topic Phat; for you or anyone who believes in the Trinitarian concept to explain what the Holy Spirit is and then try to justify the Trinitarian claim that there is but one God. Edited by jar, : see AbE's.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 145 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 4:19 AM | | Phat has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 148 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 10:37 AM | | jar has responded | | | Message 149 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 10:53 AM | | jar has not yet responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 148 of 176 (883902)
01-17-2021 10:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 147 by jar
01-17-2021 6:51 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
I disagree. Lets say that you are doing a science experiment. You may successfully replicate a predicted result many times until you cautiously conclude that a vaccine is safe for human use, for example. Through your eyes you see the results appear numerically on paper. Through followup interviews with subjects and control groups you mine data and check and recheck your results and conclusions. Now lets take "The Holy Spirit" into the Lab. Not every scientist can simply do this because they dont *know* that such a critter exists...certainly not to the extent that they conclude this awareness...this presence or feeling of peace, wisdom, and "good vibes" towards others can be quantified. How do they know, for example that this awareness...this feeling...this attitude is anything more than gas from a bad burrito from last nights meal? (Through sensing the same presence after a night of fasting, perhaps.) Through feeling unusually generous towards others whom they otherwise may be selfish towards. Through a sense of wisdom to only help and encourage others and not to try and "win" or "judge" or feel superior towards, or anything that you (the control group) may charge to be found in any Buddhist, or Atheist, or Muslim. In summation, my point of contention is with your presentation of logic,, reason, and reality itself. Im not saying you are not right but your perspective and conclusion is not right for me. It is not how I believe and it is not how I understand reality.
| It is an attempt at poetry and has no meaning beyond whatever the words conjure in the hearers individual mind. |
And yet how do you know that it is NOT God? Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by jar, posted 01-17-2021 6:51 AM | | jar has responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 150 by nwr, posted 01-17-2021 11:24 AM | | Phat has not yet responded | | | Message 152 by jar, posted 01-17-2021 12:37 PM | | Phat has responded |
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Phat
Member Posts: 15223 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 149 of 176 (883903)
01-17-2021 10:53 AM
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Reply to: Message 147 by jar
01-17-2021 6:51 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
| jar writes: This is the topic Phat; for you or anyone who believes in the Trinitarian concept to explain what the Holy Spirit is and then try to justify the Trinitarian claim that there is but one God. |
You would be a frustrating teacher had I signed up for your class. Not only would you force me out of my comfort zone of like minded believers, you would actually get me to test my belief with critical thinking and unbiased experimentation. It is a mystery to me why you dont simply believe and reinforce certainty rather than eternal doubt. It nearly seems like GOD knows andc loves you and the others here at EvC just as much as He loves me, yet allows you to question, doubt, and even deny Him while I am trying to get you to not do those things.  There is One God. Even if I threw religion and the Bible away, the belief makes perfect sense. Pantheism is weak and indecisive. Polytheism is ignorant.
Monotheism assures me that if I have a problem with a product, the Store Director owes me the rights of a customer. He can, of course, refuse to give me what I demand. How confusing would it be if I had a room full of "Store Directors" who chose to vote a consensus and I was forced to conform if I wanted to be part of that buyers club? I have never been taught inclusivity or shared truth. I have been taught exclusively and absolutely. I feel stronger in that. No Democratic consensus will ever pass a law that forces me to be nice. Or mean. [/rant]
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “The whole war between the atheist and the theist comes down to this: the atheist believes a 'what' created the universe; the theist believes a 'who' created the universe.”
- Criss Jami, Killo “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 147 by jar, posted 01-17-2021 6:51 AM | | jar has not yet responded |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 151 by PaulK, posted 01-17-2021 12:21 PM | | Phat has not yet responded |
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nwr
Member Posts: 5697 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.9
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Message 150 of 176 (883905)
01-17-2021 11:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 148 by Phat
01-17-2021 10:37 AM
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Re: What is the "Holy Spirit"?
| Now lets take "The Holy Spirit" into the Lab. |
We need to see the details of your experimental design.
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 148 by Phat, posted 01-17-2021 10:37 AM | | Phat has not yet responded |
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