Percy is a Deist - Now what's the difference between a deist and an atheist?

I've always assumed that atheists come to that position because they truly don't believe supernatural beings exist, but maybe some atheists come to that position out of a repugnance for organized religion? Just speculating, I'm not an atheist myself. Yeah, though I wouldn't describe it this way, that's probably me.--Percy

Speaking only for myself, I wouldn't say I'm happy about accepting the possibility of the supernatural. Conflicted is more like it, which is why I prefer to describe myself as believing in a higher purpose, becoming more ambiguous after that.--Percy

You missed the point. Anglagard was pointing out that no distinction was being drawn by Rahvin between observations you make with your eyes versus observations you make with your other senses. Obviously anything detectable by the senses is a valid observation of the real world.When you responded in your Message 42 to Rahvin's simple example of not seeing a pen on his desk, you falsely assumed that Rahvin would not admit non-visual evidence of the pen. That is, of course, false. Nice strawman, though. What you're trying to say is that you can feel God's presence, but not with any of the five traditional senses. The response seems to be that we only have five senses, and there's no evidence for any more, so whatever you think your sensing must come from your imagination.--Percy

This is a minor point, but I would guess that many deists are like myself in that we believe a scientific approach is the best means we have for gaining an accurate understanding of the nature of the universe. Supernaturalism is not a forgone conclusion for all deists. This is why I say I believe in a higher purpose rather than in a God who created the universe, even though I do believe in God. From here descriptions of my position have to dissolve into ambiguity since I'm well aware of the irresolvable contradictions. Who can explain one's inner beliefs?I've been thinking whether there's anything meaningful I can say about how my beliefs differ from atheists. This could get complicated since as has been noted in this thread there is considerable variation among atheists (strong and weak, for example), but I prefer to keep things simple, so I'll just go back to what I said before about believing in a higher purpose. I think most atheists probably believe there is no higher purpose, that there is no reason we're here, we're just an example of what can happen in a reality that happens to have something instead of nothing. I believe in my heart that we're here for a reason, but that there is no way we can ever discover or understand what that reason is.--PercyEdited by Percy, : Grammar.

I don't know why anyone would want more details about my religious beliefs because by my own admission they are contradictory. They do not derive from rational reflection. They're just there, a part of me. I can't answer your questions because I would be contradicting myself in every other sentence. The answers don't make sense even to me.--Percy

This is how I see it, too. As I said earlier, my religious beliefs are contradictory and irrational.Whether one is a theist, deist or atheist, there are two camps. One camp thinks its beliefs are rational and can be argued from the evidence, and I think this is by far always the larger camp. The other understands that acceptance of these beliefs comes from within and that it makes no sense trying to rationalize them or reconcile them with real-world evidence. It would make as little sense to try to reconcile all my contradictory images of dragons.But of course there's a significant difference between my belief in God and my mental images of dragons. I know dragons aren't real but imaginary. But God, I both know that he's real and that he's imaginary. Try reconciling that!--Percy

Since this is the same mistake that most theists make but displayed by one of our own who is not antagonistic to science, this seems an ideal opportunity to explore the mind of the theist. I confess that like you I can't get beyond, "How could he not see this," but anyway, while RAZD probably cannot step back from his own mind and provide us a roadmap, perhaps if we poke and probe with the right questions something meaningful might emerge.RAZD, sorry to describe you like an experiment, but hey, it's all in the name of science! --Percy

Just a slight clarification concerning me personally. For me as a deist it isn't a case of faith versus reason. When I'm thinking spiritually I realize my beliefs are based upon faith. When I'm thinking scientifically I'm hopeful my criteria are based upon evidence and reason. I would never consider mixing or attempting to reconcile the two, so it's never a case of one versus the other. It would be like trying to reconcile the rules of tennis with the rules of football - such an attempt would make no sense at all.--Percy

As I was writing that post I thought it likely the association with Gould's views might be drawn, but looking at me from within myself it doesn't feel the same as what Gould is saying. Science and religion don't feel like two things I'm consciously keeping separate. They're such different things that the possibility of disagreement between them would never occur to me. Anyone who thinks an explanation is required doesn't share my views. That's why I've contributed so little to this thread. For me it isn't something you can explain, it's just what happens to be within you.--Percy

Well, sort of. I can, I suppose, slightly agree about the compartmentalization part, but when it comes to my spiritual beliefs I don't think there's much of any intellectual nature to them, so I disagree about that part.And I could even agree more strongly with the compartmentalization part as long as it isn't interpreted as implying any conscious application. In the same way that it takes people no effort to keep even similar things like sewing and knitting separate, there is no effort involved in me keeping my religious and scientific perspectives separate. They aren't separate because I keep them separate, but because that's just the way I'm constructed.And if you want to delve to a slightly lower level, I of course realize that that is only my internal perception of how I'm constructed.--Percy

In other words, wouldn't reality make more sense if I wasn't the way I am? Wouldn't I be more consistent if I was more the way you suggest?Sure.But I'm the way I am, and I'm just trying to describe it, inconsistencies and all.Because I believe the same as Straggler about alien life, I don't see any similarity between my religious beliefs and acceptance of the possibility of alien life. It makes no sense to me to think there's no evidence supporting the possibility. At least to me, the possibility of alien life seems much higher than the possibility that any of my spiritual beliefs are true.I appreciate the interest, but I've asserted throughout this thread that my spiritual beliefs make no sense. If you're trying to make sense of them then I think it's a lost cause.--Percy

I'm having trouble parsing this, it seems contradictory. Can you find another way of saying the same thing?--Percy

Oh, okay, I think it might be just terminology and grammar differences. The way I tend to express it, the existence of life on our planet is evidence in favor of the possibility of life on other planets, just as the noise of a nearby car engine is evidence in favor of the possibility of a car driving down your road. Though we express it differently, it feels like pretty much the same beast.--Percy

I'd like to suggest that in the context of this thread RAZD be considered an experimental subject under study rather than a discussion participant. I said something similar earlier on in the thread. Again, sorry RAZD, but this seems like a valuable opportunity to study the psychology of the other side while it is being displayed by one of our own.--Percy

I don't know that I could agree that the deist's God is disinterested in the Universe. I think this is a possibility, but it could also be that he is intensely interested in seeing how what he set up plays out.--Percy