Evolution or Creation

There's no benefit in choosing any of these things. As soon as you get into the business of choosing belief, you don't really believe. You are choosing a position, a party loyalty. Nothing more.Belief is a spontaneous, involuntary response to experience.When you turn on the hot water and put your hand under it, you experience that the water is hot. At once you believe the water is hot. You don't stand there, scalding one hand and stroking your chin with the other, weighing the 'benefits' of believing the water to be one temperature or the other. You believe the experience.Your OP, with all its talk of choosing, avoids any mention of real belief. You are talking about choosing a party platform. Every party has a line. When one joins a party one signs one's name to the manifesto. This is a lesson you have absorbed well.But truth seeking is not a club. Questions are not a party line.As long as you think in this pattern, you will have no taste for truth seeking and cannot understand even the basics of the art. You will join whatever club you please and defend all those planks in the party's platform that you find 'beneficial.' This is not belief. You speak of choices determined by personal comfort and nothing more.Belief is an honest, involuntary personal response to reality. It is not chosen. Belief cannot be faked because it cannot be willed.Tell me you choose your belief in God, and I know at once that you do not believe._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : concision.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

Actually, these can be paired as well. It happens all the time: an atheist given one picture of god can be a believer given another picture of god.The Christians executed by the ancient Romans were sentenced not for the gods they professed, but for the gods they did not. The European druids killed by Christian missionaries a few centuries later believed in many more gods than the Christians did, but were executed for their unbelief.The author of the OP is a combination A&G. Icant would be considered an infidel by Muslim extremists. And the extremists would be considered infidels by him.Of course, your post uses the term atheism in its absolute sense. You use it to mean rejection of all gods--as you put it, 'the idea of such a being.' This is standard usage. It's what people do in modern existential discussions.This standard usage is not the one, though, that the author of the OP understands. In framing the 'choice' as one between belief and atheism, he means embracing his picture of deity or no picture at all. He takes no notice of the vast number of other possible pictures one could embrace. He thus does not realize the extent to which he is already an atheist.

I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

​

Stephen Roberts

____Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

(Choir in the background hums 'Onward Christian Soldiers') (Choir segues to 'Little Brown Church in the Vale') (Segue to 'Faith of Our Fathers') (Segue to 'Lift High the Cross.' Crescendo to fortissimo 'Amen.' Choir exit.)

​

(Archer settles into a chair at the jazz club. He invites the preacher into another one. The band strikes up 'It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing.' A scantily clad waitress takes the order for a Singapore Sling and a Shirley Temple.)Thank you, Icant, for illustrating my point.I said belief is not willed. One can't choose belief. One chooses groups. One chooses party platforms, creeds, and manifestos that tribes promote.Your response was to proclaim the unwavering nature of your 'belief' across six decades--then invoke your relatives.Granny would be proud, wouldn't she, to see her little boy quoting her bromides so many years after she uttered them. And it would surely thrill her to know her little boy decided everything he needed to know about the universe in second grade and has never allowed a single new idea to penetrate his skull since.Your great-grandson will no doubt be just as grateful to his great-granddad. He may even show his gratitude in similar fashion: by never allowing a single idea his granddad never held to enter his brain. How pleased you must be at the thought of your great-grandson possessing such a steadfast, unwavering intellect. Who knows? Properly indoctrinated, great-grandson's life could link with great-granddad's and Granny's to generate over two centuries of Steadfast Human Consciousness Without a Single New Idea.A noble family tradition indeed.And it illustrates my point. Your OP is about tribal loyalty. Your family makes a totem of creed--a collective manifesto it mistakes for real, personal belief. The creed is a symbol for your family the same way a flag or manifesto is a symbol for a party. You simply take it for granted that this creed is the glue that has bonded one generation in your family to another.You overestimate the effect of creed.The truth is that family bonds run strong among human beings anyway. Families exist--I know many--where three or four different religious beliefs and non-beliefs exist in one generation. These families remain strong. Members care about each other. They are loyal to each other. They tell stories about ancestors and celebrate new births. Individuals are Buddhists, agnostics, Catholic and Protestant Christians, and atheists--yet Granny is still proud, Great-Grandbaby is still adorable, and all the beliefs are beneficial.Your OP is not a rational discussion of belief. Its poor logic on that subject has already been exposed. What you've penned is merely a gesture of loyalty. You equate loyalty with belief, then on that faulty assumption you have gone onto a message board to grandly announce your intention to be more loyal to your flesh and blood than to anybody you meet on the message board.So what? Most people already take the priority of family bonds as a given. Yet you feel the need to proclaim yours--to declare your intention never to betray Granny and Li'l Tater. You do this even though Granny is not on this board. Neither is Li'l Tater. There is only you.The possibility of something new entering your head must be frightening indeed for you.You are in a new environment. I can understand how after decades of stasis you might feel disoriented by a plurality of ideas all around you. I can understand the appeal Granny's old blanket has for you right now--the feeling of security it offers if you cling to it.Relax. Enjoy the jazz.____Edited by Archer Opterix, : ordered potato skins and wasabi nuts.Edited by Archer Opterix, : another Singapore Sling. Edited by Archer Opterix, : requested salt peanuts and 'Salt Peanuts.'

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

Experience.Run a simple experiment. Stick your hand into steaming hot water.
Then try choosing to believe that the water felt like ice.Please come back here and report the results of your experiment._

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

So ignorance is bliss. Thank you for sharing that information. It saves us running such a risky experiment with our own lives.But do you really mean it?Looks to me like you're not satisfied with your life at all. Looks to me like this ringing tribute to the virtues of ignorance is just one of those party manifestos you've 'chosen' like you select a pair of socks.Why would a person who feels so empowered choose a handle like I Can't? Why does a person who feels so content with his ignorance voluntarily seek out a message board at age 67 that exposes him to new ideas?If you 'choose' to believe in God, you don't really believe in God.If you 'choose' to believe ignorance is a good thing, you don't really believe ignorance is a good thing._Edited by Archer Opterix, : tinkering.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

One advantage to being an agnostic, at least: you would no longer have to talk yourself into believing things you obviously doubt. You could say what you really think and leave unanswered questions open and end this game of 'choosing' beliefs that would be acceptable to your granny.BTW, have you run that experiment yet? Where you put your hand into steaming hot water and try choosing to believe that it is cold?If so, what do you now believe?_

My congratulations, sir.It sounds like you really believe this about the age of the universe. Not like you 'believe' it, the way you make yourself 'believe' so many other things.Good for you._

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

quote:

---

Archer: BTW, have you run that experiment yet? Where you put your hand into steaming hot water and try choosing to believe that it is cold?

---

Then you really believe hot water is hot. It's your authentic response to experience. You cannot will this belief to be otherwise.Good. This is progress.That's the difference between belief and 'belief.'_Edited by Archer Opterix, : conclusion.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

Bingo. You really are making progress!In your OP and every post up until now you have spoken of 'choosing' your belief. You have assumed that others 'choose' theirs.Now you admit that what I have been telling you all along is true. Now you admit that no choice is involved, that you 'cannot will your belief' to be one thing or another. Now you admit that genuine belief is exactly what I said it is: an involuntary and spontaneous response to experience.Thank you for this admission. Your retreat from your earlier position is duly noted and interpreted as a retraction.If you now understand that you cannot 'choose' belief, you now understand that no one else can do so either. You now see the folly of talking about other people 'choosing' this or that belief that they hold, and of asking them why you should 'choose' one belief or another based on personal advantage.Do you understand this now? Please confirm._____Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

No, atheists and others are committed to their beliefs, which just happen to differ from yours. You are an atheist, too, by most religious standards that have obtained throughout history.And now you know where this 'commitment' comes from. You know belief is not willed, but is an honest and involuntary response to experience.Right?_

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

On what basis?(No need to shout.)

Then your belief in God is based on experience. You had an experience of reading the Bible.The point stands. My beliefs are an honest and involuntary response to experience... as all genuine beliefs are.Including yours.________Edited by Archer Opterix, : punctuation.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

In Taiwan we're very proud of our green-glowing pigs.
BBC NEWS | Asia-Pacific | Taiwan breeds green-glowing pigs

Genuine belief is a spontaneous, involuntary response to experience. About the details of your biography I only know what you tell me.What you told me earlier was that you 'believed' when you read the Bible at age seven. In the absence of any other details, I credited this professed belief as being the genuine article. I pointed out that reading the Bible is itself an experience. Your belief (if genuine) thus came from experience, as all genuine belief does.Now you offer a more detailed, and weird, story. Here it is as you tell it. Let's look at that beauty a little closer. Note the words I have placed in boldface type. Are you starting to see the problem?It appears you already believed at the point of line 2. That's where you say you 'came to some conclusions.' [qs]I read the Bible.
From the things I read in the Bible [/b]I came to some conclusions.[/b][/qs]Forming a conclusion IS believing. Oddly, though, you don't see these conclusions as the beginning of your belief.Maybe you have good reason. You don't say, after all, what these conclusions were. Maybe the existence of God wasn't the first order of business. Maybe the seven-year-old you more pressing issues to resolve first.Were you convinced God exists by what you read? That's belief. Were you trying to figure out what was expected of you before proceeding? That's fear. First you say you arrived at conclusions, then later willed your 'belief.' Odd. Then you're not talking about an idea you really believe. A ringing endorsement... given that you could 'just as easily discard the idea.'

You talk about belief as if you were voting in a particularly odious small-town election. You are only acquainted with one candidate and you assume the existence of only two. You're not enthusiastic about either of them. But you don't see any benefit for yourself in declaring yourself undecided. You may as well throw the lever one way or the other to secure a few benefits for yourself.You announced early in the campaign that you would vote for Candidate A. He's the guy your relatives are voting for. A has promised to pay you good money for your vote. He has also threatened to beat you up if he loses.His opponent has offered no similar inducements.Now, two days before the election, you've decided you may as well hear what Candidate B has to say. You drop in on a rally. You tell everyone your vote can still be had. You listen to the stump speech to hear if Candidate B is willing to beat Candidate A's offer.But the more B talks the less you feel any reason to switch your (admittedly shallow) loyalties. B refuses to offer you money for your vote and says nothing that makes you fear for your personal safety if you remain in the rival camp.In the Q&A session you tell Candidate B as much. B tells you you're a living example of the kind of corruption he opposes. You are appalled that any candidate would talk to you this way.You're an honest voter. You're trying to be fair. You've given this person one last chance to offer you better money or scare more shit out of you than the other guy. If he's not willing to make the effort, well... it's not your fault he lost your vote, is it? That's politics.But it's not personal belief.Belief is about convictions. Not making deals.And it's sad that, after 67 years of living, you show no awareness of the difference._______

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.

Archer: Belief is about conviction. Not deal making. Did you choose to think this, like you choose everything else you believe?If so, this is likely another of your beliefs that could 'just as easily go the other way.'If enough 'benefits' can be shown for making the switch, that is. So?Just choose to believe you have the $92.5 as well. Then you've got it all.

---

ArcherAll species are transitional.