Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,793 Year: 4,050/9,624 Month: 921/974 Week: 248/286 Day: 9/46 Hour: 1/3


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Evolution or Creation
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 1 of 301 (395308)
04-15-2007 11:32 PM


Why should I choose Atheism and Evolution over God and Creation?
In Genesis 1:1 it says that In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Most go right to Genesis 1:2 and start the creation but it was created in Genesis 1:1. Somehow I think the scriptures got mixed up as in: Gene 2:4 (KJS) These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
In the day the Lord God made the earth and heavens. This account corresponds to Genesis 1:1 Gene 5:1 (KJS) This [is] the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him; This says the book of generations of Adam in the day that God created man in the likeness of God. This account corresponds with the account in Genesis 1:2 - 2:3
Therefore I believe and propose that somewhere back in time as we know it that God created the heavens and the earth. I believe at that moment it was perfect in every way. The best I get is that there was no sea at this time. There was no day and night just day as God was the light. So when God told Adam the day he ate the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil he would die, he did die the same day. This day could have lasted millions of years in our time as there was no time then. This man was not as we know man today. He was formed from the dust of the earth and God breathed into his nostrils and he became a living soul.
I do not think he was limited as we are as he could probably teleport himself where ever he wanted to go. To name all the animals he had to be a very smart man. I believe he was the smartest man that has ever walked on the face of the earth, other than the God man.
At many points in time and the last probably about 66 million years ago there were extinction events. I assume all life forms was destroyed I have no way of knowing. Except when we get to Genesis 1:2 the earth was void and without form and now it had water.
Then we have the 7 days of Moses, the recreation, Gen. 1:2 - Gen. 2:3.
Gene 1:11 (KJS) And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. {grass: Heb. tender grass}
Pay special attention to the seed in itself upon the earth.
How did those seed get there if they were not there before?
Gene 1:26 (KJS) And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. Gene 1:28 (KJS) And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. {moveth: Heb. creepeth}
Man blessed and told to multiply and replenish the earth. He could not replenish it if it had not been inhabited before.
I have never been able to buy into the idea that man just happened. I have always needed to know that my life was worth something and there was a reason for it. The only place I found that was in the Bible. Now I am a realist and I know man has copied the manuscripts and has probably arranged things to suit themselves along the way and even added and took away things.
But I believe that God has preserved His Word. I have studied many Bibles and have been able to find the core teachings that I believe in 90 % of them.
The Bible is the only book that I have read so far that tells me where I came from. Why I am here, and where I will spend eternity.
Some things the Bible tells me:
That God made me so I could choose to love and serve Him just because He is God.
That man has a sin nature he inherited from Adam.
God provided a sacrifice to pay my sin debt.
Jesus the only begotten Son of God was crucified that I might be saved.
That to go to heaven I must trust in That Sacrifice.
That if I do nothing I will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
That Christ was buried and arose 3 days later.
That 40 days later he ascended into Heaven to make intercession for me.
That Jesus is coming again.
That I will be judged according to how I have done on earth and will be rewarded accordingly.
That all who have not trusted Christ will stand at the Great White Throne judgment and confess Jesus is Lord.
That all whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
That there will be a new Heaven and Earth.
That there will be no more day or night as God will be the light.
That there will be a City, The New Jerusalem that has streets of Gold,where I will live with God for eternity.
I have had a happy full life and enjoyed every minute of it and I can say as Paul said, I have fought a good fight I have kept the faith and if it does end with my death what have I lost. I would not trade what I have had and still have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have put together. That money could not buy the peace and satisfaction I have had for the past 58 years. I have never needed anything that my God has not supplied.
Now these are the things I believe and have through my faith in God.
Now I know that most of you cannot relate to what I believe. You think it is a myth, some even call it a lie, some would say I am deluded. But if when I die that is all there is to it what have I lost?
Evolution as I understand it, teaches us that we evolved from a life form that we do not know where it came from, why, or how it got here yet.
Chiroptera tells me we are not much different than a worm.
quote:
Biologically, there isn't much difference between a human and a worm,
  —Chiroptera
If we are no different than the animals, birds, fishes, or worms then when we die we return to where ever it was that we came from and that is the end of it.
But what if I am right and there is a heaven to gain and a hell to avoid?
I posted what I believe so that those wishing to respond would know where I am coming from.
But I want to limit the discussion to the question's below.
What benefit would it be for me to renounce God and creation and embrace Atheism and evolution?
For that matter what benefit is derived by anyone choosing Atheism and Evolution over God and Creation?

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by nator, posted 04-17-2007 8:35 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 4 by mark24, posted 04-17-2007 8:38 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 5 by Parasomnium, posted 04-17-2007 9:53 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 6 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 10:08 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 7 by dwise1, posted 04-17-2007 10:50 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 9 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-17-2007 11:22 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 10 by fallacycop, posted 04-17-2007 11:30 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 11 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-17-2007 3:42 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 12 by Neutralmind, posted 04-17-2007 6:38 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 14 by Neutralmind, posted 04-17-2007 7:58 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 206 by Peter, posted 04-22-2007 8:39 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 293 by anglagard, posted 04-27-2007 12:30 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 21 of 301 (395800)
04-17-2007 10:42 PM


Re-Answers
You people just don't get it do you?
I have believed in God every since I read the Bible for the first time at age 7. I am now 67 years old, I trusted Christ as my personal saviour at the age of 9 and received eternal life at that time and any time that ever comes to be present time.
Now this is what my God did for me. He sent His only begotten Son to die in my place so I could spend eternity with Him in Heaven.
And YES I CHOSE to accept the free gift offered by God.
Just as each of you have chosen to believe what you do.
But that has nothing to do with the question.
I have just stated a very short version of what my God has done for me, and will do for anyone that will trust Him for eternal life.
What I am asking is, what does Atheism have to offer?
What does Evolution have to offer? I know you say it is just change over time. But you also have to say man evolved from that first single cell of life. That means he does not have a Spirit.
You cannot believe in the total package of evolution and believe that God formed the first man from the dust of the earth and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. (Genesis 2:7)
Nor can you believe that He made the second man in His image. (Genesis 1:27)
Granny used to say son you can't have your cake and eat it too.
Either there is a God who created everything like He said.
OR
There is no God and we just happened.
So I ask again , What would be the BENEFIT of my great grandson who has about 3 months to birth yet have in not believing in God and His creation and instead believing that there is no God and we just happened?

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 10:54 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 35 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 1:39 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 37 by Larni, posted 04-18-2007 3:58 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 42 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 6:36 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 46 by Parasomnium, posted 04-18-2007 9:32 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 50 by LinearAq, posted 04-18-2007 12:13 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 22 of 301 (395801)
04-17-2007 10:48 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Neutralmind
04-17-2007 8:27 PM


Re-Believe
that an atheist has to believe in evolution
No one has to believe in anything.
But they choose to believe in certain things.
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Neutralmind, posted 04-17-2007 8:27 PM Neutralmind has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 25 of 301 (395809)
04-17-2007 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
04-17-2007 10:54 PM


Re: Re-Answers
Of course. You need to understand that the tales in Genesis were meant to teach a theological lesson, not a science lesson.
But jar I believe they are an accurate account of what happened in the beginning, and then at a later date.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 10:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 11:41 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 27 by fallacycop, posted 04-17-2007 11:51 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 04-18-2007 4:03 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 28 of 301 (395813)
04-18-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by fallacycop
04-17-2007 11:51 PM


Re: Re-Answers
Why would god set us that trap?
What has this got to do with the question I asked?
What is the benefit of believing in no God and that we just evolved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by fallacycop, posted 04-17-2007 11:51 PM fallacycop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by DrJones*, posted 04-18-2007 12:25 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 29 of 301 (395817)
04-18-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
04-17-2007 11:41 PM


Re: Re-Answers
You are the one who has to decide whether you want to continue to believe what has been shown to be totally false.
jar no one has shown me that what I believe Genesis teaches about the creation is false. As I have said no one believes what I believe Genesis teaches, or at least they won't admit it. No one listens to it just as everybody is ignoring the questions I set out in the beginning op.
quote:
What benefit would it be for me to renounce God and creation and embrace Atheism and evolution?
For that matter what benefit is derived by anyone choosing Atheism and Evolution over God and Creation?
God tells me He created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in them.
God promises me eternal life if I believe and trust Him.
Atheism promises????????????????????????death.
Evolution says I just evolved from a single cell life form that no one knows where it came from, how or why. In a universe that no one knows where it came from, how or why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 04-17-2007 11:41 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 04-18-2007 12:34 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 32 by kuresu, posted 04-18-2007 12:37 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 45 by fallacycop, posted 04-18-2007 9:28 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 48 by Stile, posted 04-18-2007 10:37 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 33 of 301 (395824)
04-18-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by kuresu
04-18-2007 12:37 AM


Re: Re-Answers
i would think one would believe for more than just getting eternal life. but hey, that's me.
I don't think at 9 years old I would have been thinking of personal gain. But it is a nice thing to have just because I believe Him.
So what would I gain from being an atheist, and believe I evolved from from a single cell life form, that nobody knows where it came from, how or why?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by kuresu, posted 04-18-2007 12:37 AM kuresu has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 1:00 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 39 by Doddy, posted 04-18-2007 4:32 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 43 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 7:03 AM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 51 of 301 (395985)
04-18-2007 4:26 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Parasomnium
04-18-2007 9:32 AM


Everything in Life is a Choice
Are you seriously suggesting that such a calculation would be your basis for what you would subsequently believe?
If you read the op you read that I would not trade what I have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have put together. Those are two of the richest men in the world. That should tell you what kind of value I place on what I have at the present.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Parasomnium, posted 04-18-2007 9:32 AM Parasomnium has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by fallacycop, posted 04-18-2007 4:50 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 4:51 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 54 of 301 (395992)
04-18-2007 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by LinearAq
04-18-2007 12:13 PM


Re: Re-Answers
It has been pointed out that you cannot choose to believe.
Do you mean to tell me when I first read the Bible at the age of 7 I did not have a choice to believe it or not?
If you cannot choose to believe how do you get belief?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by LinearAq, posted 04-18-2007 12:13 PM LinearAq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 5:01 PM ICANT has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 55 of 301 (395994)
04-18-2007 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by crashfrog
04-18-2007 4:51 PM


Re: Everything in Life is a Choice
Why do you think you would lose it, as an atheist?
No crashfrog I would not have it.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 4:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by lechuga los muertos, posted 04-18-2007 5:01 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 58 of 301 (396005)
04-18-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by fallacycop
04-18-2007 4:50 PM


Re: Everything in Life is a Choice
Who cares about money? do you value it enough to chose willfull ignorance?
quote:
I have had a happy full life and enjoyed every minute of it and I can say as Paul said, I have fought a good fight I have kept the faith and if it does end with my death what have I lost. I would not trade what I have had and still have for all the money Bill Gates and Warren Buffet have put together. That money could not buy the peace and satisfaction I have had for the past 58 years. I have never needed anything that my God has not supplied.
Lets see I have had a happy full life and enjoyed every minute of it.
I have had peace and satisfaction for the past 58 years. (I am 67)
I have never needed anything that my God has not supplied.
I would rather have these things and be ignorant and unlearned and go into Heaven and spend eternity there.
Than: To be the most knowledgeable person cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by fallacycop, posted 04-18-2007 4:50 PM fallacycop has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 5:21 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 62 by kuresu, posted 04-18-2007 5:39 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 66 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 5:52 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 67 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 5:55 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 59 of 301 (396007)
04-18-2007 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by lechuga los muertos
04-18-2007 5:01 PM


Re: Everything in Life is a Choice
That wasn't the question though. The question was "Why?"
What I have comes from God if I was an atheist I would never have had what I have.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by lechuga los muertos, posted 04-18-2007 5:01 PM lechuga los muertos has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 61 of 301 (396012)
04-18-2007 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by crashfrog
04-18-2007 5:21 PM


Re: Everything in Life is a Choice
So what, exactly, do you lose in this life as an atheist?
OK so what do I lose by believing in God?
If I die and that is it what have I lost. I have been happy and fulfilled.
If I am right and there is a God and a Heaven I will spend eternity with Him.
If you are right and you have been happy and fulfilled you have not lost anything.
But if you are wrong and there is a God and a place prepared for all those who do not trust in Him. You Lose big time.
This is the reason I ask, what is the benefit for me or anyone to be an atheist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 5:21 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by crashfrog, posted 04-18-2007 5:39 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 64 by ringo, posted 04-18-2007 5:48 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 65 by ReverendDG, posted 04-18-2007 5:48 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 69 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 6:09 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 74 by Doddy, posted 04-18-2007 6:24 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 68 of 301 (396032)
04-18-2007 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Archer Opteryx
04-18-2007 1:39 AM


Re: Granny & Gillespie
The possibility of something new entering your head must be frightening indeed for you.
Archer you know nothing about me.
Just to give you some idea of some things that go through my head.
I believe God spoke the universe into being in the far distant past a lot further than 14 billion years ago, maybe even trillions of years ago, or longer.
When science catches up and gets some better ways of dating things you may find out that I am right.
So you eat, drink and be merry for one day you will die, then what?
The judgment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 1:39 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-18-2007 6:23 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 210 by Archer Opteryx, posted 04-22-2007 2:06 PM ICANT has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 70 of 301 (396037)
04-18-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by nator
04-18-2007 5:55 PM


Re: Everything in Life is a Choice
So, you seem to be saying that your God punishes people who are curious and knowledgeable about nature and rewards people who are willfully ignorant about nature.
No nator you said that.
I said God will cast everyone who does not trust in Him into the lake of fire where they will suffer forever.
I have nothing against education I did go to college.
And I have stated that I am here still trying to learn.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 5:55 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by nator, posted 04-19-2007 8:29 AM ICANT has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024