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Author Topic:   The experience of converting
notwise
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 73 (221138)
07-01-2005 11:33 AM


Moved by AdminJar
I was basically asking other people about there experiences with converting to atheism but now I think I should ask about peoples experiences who have converted period. Maybe the title should be "The art of converting" or "The experience of converting". I think a rewrite is in order to adress a larger audience, anyone who has converted as opposed to just Christians>Atheist converters. I was trying to show my feelings about my conversion/ ask about others experiences. Here is my rewrite. Feel free to edit.
When I was a child I was discouraged from converting to atheism. I was told several different things about what it would be like for me converting from christianity to atheism, mainly that I would live my life on earth deppressed and then die and go to hell. Now that I have made the conversion I feel more free and am excited at all the thoughts and ideas that christianity always discouraged which I can now explore in a carefree manner. I would like to ask any converters, from any religion to any religion, to share their experiences.
I would also like some opinions on the following things which I learned through the process of conversion and the things you learned after converting.
Now that I have converted I have realized that atheists can believe in good and evil, not spiritually, but the things considered evil are usually hurtful to society, murder is not beneficial to the species so therefore it is not natural.
When I was a child I used to see visual images or hear of things which made me shudder and I knew these things were evil however I now realize that this feeling of evil is because of the culture I was raised in. Different cultures see different things as evil.
I always thought that I would be deppressed as an atheist thinking that when I died that was it. On the contrary I am now content and am devoted to the betterment of mankind. I know that I can make a difference for future generations and that has taken the place of what I used to think my purpose was.
The universe seems more exciting now that I do not believe in god, more adventorous and my future seems less determined. The universe is governed by the laws of science, which are learnable and predictable. The universe without a god, to me, is much more exciting than a universe with one. Learning is my ultimate goal.
It would be nice for you to include what you have felt emotionally and the state of your mind since converting. For example if you converted from atheism to christianity then you could answer the following questions.Why dont you feel scared and why dont you accept murder and other criminal acts? Do you feel more awe and wonder when staring at the stars since your conversion? Also any other good questions you can think of.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2005 12:11 PM notwise has replied
 Message 3 by Philip, posted 07-01-2005 12:36 PM notwise has not replied
 Message 4 by roxrkool, posted 07-01-2005 3:07 PM notwise has replied
 Message 11 by Brad McFall, posted 07-03-2005 11:55 PM notwise has not replied
 Message 16 by coffee_addict, posted 07-05-2005 5:04 PM notwise has not replied
 Message 28 by riVeRraT, posted 07-18-2005 7:13 AM notwise has not replied
 Message 38 by clpMINI, posted 07-22-2005 5:14 PM notwise has not replied
 Message 46 by mick, posted 07-24-2005 3:58 PM notwise has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 73 (221151)
07-01-2005 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by notwise
07-01-2005 11:33 AM


Hello, notwise.
First, let me start by saying that I'm not too comfortable with using the word "convert" to describe my...er...conversion to atheism. "Convert" seems to have connotations of a emotional and spiritual bonding, as well as an acceptance of the dogma and ritual that attends the switch in belief. My acceptance that there is no god was entirely intellectual, based on my acceptance that there was no good evidence for the existence of a deity and that postulating a deity ended up explaining nothing. And accepting that there is no god does not entail the acceptance of any particular dogma or ritual, since there is no dogmas or rituals associated with atheism. But I don't want to quibble over semantics, we can continue to use the word "convert" if that is what you prefer, as long as we remember my concerns over the use of that word.
There is also some differences of opinion of the meaning of the word "atheism". When I use the word atheism, at least when describing myself, I take it to mean the belief that no god or supernatural deity exists.
Anyway, to describe my initial "conversion" to atheism, I will admit that it was a very shocking and depressing event in my life. Being steeped in the fundamentalist way of viewing things, I suddenly found my life without purpose, and I had trouble justifying taking a moral stance on things. Contrary to what some fundamentalists would say, I did not decide to not believe in god in order to justify my sinful life -- I really fought against accepting these beliefs because I found the implications of a godless universe disturbing and I tried very hard to maintain my belief in Christianity.
So my acceptance of atheism was really quite traumatic, and if I had my own free choice at that time I certainly would not have chosen it (although now, of course, I am glad that it happened). It took me a long time to learn how to develop my own purpose in life (or even what it means to have a purpose in life), and it took me a long time to realize that morals and ethics are not something that requires justification -- they are simply things that one feels.
As far as the process of my "conversion", that is pretty hard to describe, since I think a lot of the process was subconscious, and at any rate I am no better at figuring out why I think the way I do than I am at figuring anyone else out.
The first doubts came, I think, by actually reading the Gospels. I was a fundamentalist, of the religious right sort. But I could not square the Jesus' message in the Gospels with the right wing, conservative politics that the preachers were advocating from the pulpit. It didn't seem important at the time, but in hind sight I think this was the biggest source of my doubts. There were other aspects of evangelical Christianity that I found contradictory -- for example, what happens to, say, the souls of Pacific Islanders who lived after Jesus' sacrifice but before the arrival of the first missionaries -- I never found any of the answers I recieved to this question satisfactory. I recall that the differences in the accounts of the discovery of the empty tomb at the end of each gospel, not only a supposedly historical event but the most important historical event in the world, to be moderately troubling to the idea that the Bible was a literally accurate, divinely inspired work of actual history.
The final straw, though, was the theory of evolution. Once I decided to look into it (with the idea of refuting it), I found that Genesis simply could not be historically accurate. With that, my entire faith crumbled, and I eventually became an atheist.
I suppose one could ask why I didn't simply become a liberal, non-literal Christian along the lines of jar. I guess that is because I was so steeped in the fundamentalist faith that I couldn't disconnect any part of it from any other part -- the conservative politics, the literalness of the Bible, the existence of God -- if any of it was untrue, then none of it can be trusted. I also came to the opinion that there was no good evidence for the existence of a deity -- the only reason to believe was because the Bible said that one did. But if the Bible couldn't be trusted to be accurate in some things, then I saw no reason why its claim of the existence of god should be accurate.
That, then, is a description of my switch from Christianity to atheism. Is this what you were looking for?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notwise, posted 07-01-2005 11:33 AM notwise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by gnojek, posted 07-01-2005 5:14 PM Chiroptera has replied
 Message 9 by notwise, posted 07-03-2005 11:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 3 of 73 (221155)
07-01-2005 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by notwise
07-01-2005 11:33 AM


Conversions great and small ...
(Notwise, very interesting and thank you for allowing all of us to rant here)
Some here might agree they’ve undergone not a few conversions great and small.
Once, as a psychology major and virgin, I experienced various (faddish) conversion-experiences. I even pushed your atheism conversion for a season. My own experience of atheistic conversion was rather appassionato if you will.
I converted back to a YEC (from OEC) this week after almost being evicted from a geology forum for ranting and calling Behe a YEC (my stupid mistake and I’m still profusely sorry to all offended).
But it now feels great to replace all my plate tectonics theories with catastrophic plate tectonics theories (involving a global flood theories). I mean, I feel like a new man transformed, resurrected, renewed, with lower cognitive dissonance, even. It’s like I dropped 100 pounds of baggage off my back or something.
Of course, the most astonishing and joyful conversion I ever underwent was becoming dead in Christ, buried in an apocalyptic earth, and risen with Christ. I recommend it to anyone as the way out of (1) sin and (2) Moses’ law of damnation to us all.
WARNING: to get permanently smoked in Christ, baptized in Christ, purged/risen in Christ (etc.) required:
1) an exceptionally hard-headed fundy evangelist to jar me into hell and back.
2) a miserably failed soul (myself) desperately trying to get permanent forgiveness and rock-meaning to life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notwise, posted 07-01-2005 11:33 AM notwise has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 4 of 73 (221173)
07-01-2005 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by notwise
07-01-2005 11:33 AM


My 'conversion' to atheism was pretty boring actually. I went to a Catholic church, was baptised, confirmed, and had my First Communion before I turned 13. In the meantime, I was also going to the Buddhist Temple with my father.
I knew my father did not believe in god and when I went to church and heard all the terrible things that were supposed to happen to non-Christians, I took a harder look at Christianity. My heart would not reconcile the reality of a loving father who would end up in Hell.
I had always been interested in science. Asking questions and requiring answers came naturally to me. Even as a young kid, the whole god thing never made much sense to me. While I enjoyed some of the stories in the Bible, they were nothing more than your average children's story to me. I sat in the pews or at Catechism and all I heard was blah blah blah. The Bible held no interest for me whatsoever.
Once I turned 13, I was given the choice to continue to go to church or not. I did not go back except to make my mom happy on holidays. I never even made it to my first confession because it didn't matter one iota to me, or ever got to eat one of those wafers - which at one time I desperately wanted to taste. LOL
As I grew older, I didn't think much of god or church. It wasn't until I started posting on messageboards and reading discussions on religion that I realized I was no longer a 'Christian.' That realization didn't make me happy or sad. It just... made sense.
The only significant thing that has changed in me that I can think of is how I view my life and the lives of others around me. I guess I'm a bit more selfish, to be honest.
Several years ago, it came to me quite suddenly (although it really shouldn't have been much of a surprise) that this was it. I had one chance at life and this was it. With that realization, I've made several decisions that changed the course of my life.
One such decision, involved my partner at the time. My partner was a severe alcoholic, drug addict, and if anyone knows much about that lifestyle, it comes with a whole host of other problems. I told him I would no longer be a party to either his self-destruction or mine. I was not going to waste the rest of my life worrying about him or wishing I had made other choices. As much as I cared for him (we'd been together 14 years at the time), my life was much too important to me to fling it away on a drunk and drug addict.
Today, I'm happy to say that one realization changed two lives for the better. And it's one I often pass onto others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notwise, posted 07-01-2005 11:33 AM notwise has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by notwise, posted 07-03-2005 11:15 PM roxrkool has replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 73 (221219)
07-01-2005 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
07-01-2005 12:11 PM


accepting that there is no god does not entail the acceptance of any particular dogma or ritual, since there is no dogmas or rituals associated with atheism.
Are you talking about "strong" athiesm, as in you're sure there is no god?
Then there is one bit of dogma right there, that god definitley doesn't exist.
You don't know this one way or another and if you believe that god certainly doesn't exist, then this requires faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2005 12:11 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2005 5:24 PM gnojek has replied
 Message 7 by roxrkool, posted 07-01-2005 6:20 PM gnojek has replied
 Message 8 by ramoss, posted 07-02-2005 7:33 PM gnojek has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 73 (221220)
07-01-2005 5:24 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by gnojek
07-01-2005 5:14 PM


quote:
Then there is one bit of dogma right there, that god definitley doesn't exist.
From Wikipedia:
Axioms may be thought of as concepts or 'givens' so fundamental that disputing them would be unimaginable; dogmata are also fundamental (e.g. 'God exists') yet incorporate also the larger set of conclusions that comprise the (religious) field of thought (e.g. 'God created the universe'). Axioms are propositions not subject to proof or disproof, or are statements accepted on their own merits.
Not exactly what I meant when I used the term, but close enough. The simple phrase "God does not exist" is not a dogma -- it is simply the starting point of the set of beliefs, an axiom, if you will.
-
quote:
You don't know this one way or another and if you believe that god certainly doesn't exist, then this requires faith.
I don't know one way or the other whether there is an elephant standing in the corridor at the other end of the building, but I believe that there certainly isn't one. You might call this faith if you want, but it seems to trivialize the word "faith", at least for the purposes of this conversation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by gnojek, posted 07-01-2005 5:14 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 5:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 7 of 73 (221244)
07-01-2005 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by gnojek
07-01-2005 5:14 PM


gnojek writes:
You don't know this one way or another and if you believe that god certainly doesn't exist, then this requires faith.
In my case, it requires about as much faith as not believing in the Easter Bunny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by gnojek, posted 07-01-2005 5:14 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 4:42 PM roxrkool has not replied
 Message 27 by Brad McFall, posted 07-09-2005 8:30 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 8 of 73 (221382)
07-02-2005 7:33 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by gnojek
07-01-2005 5:14 PM


Not quite.
It is just that if there is no evidence to believe something DOES exist, the default viewpoint is that it doesn't.
Do you have FAITH that the IPU doesn't exist?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by gnojek, posted 07-01-2005 5:14 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
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notwise
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 73 (221538)
07-03-2005 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
07-01-2005 12:11 PM


Reply to Chiroptera
I apologize if I made it sound as though atheism is a religion, I recognize it as an intellectual decision so I think I will call it that. My Intellectual Decision (notice the capitals) was a freedom thing to me, though not at first. Your story seems to be very similiar to mine. I think it is because we were both rooted in christianity so hard that the radical change in perspective took a hard toll on us psychologically. My Intellectual Decision was a slow progression, luckily, from devoted christian>christian>doubtful>Atheist. From point 1 to point 3 was easy but that last step was painfully difficult. I'm wondering if there is psychological harm occuring in this process? When I first "broke the chains" I was deppressed, scared, worried, anyone who saw me would think I was a nutcase, maybe I was, and I was constantly being attacked by people I knew, exactly what my church told me would happen! But then a curious thing happened, I stopped being afraid. Its almost like when I was younger and would watch horror films, the first couple days your terrified to even go in your room but then one day you are sick of being scared and brave up the courage to walk in.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 07-01-2005 12:11 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
notwise
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 73 (221540)
07-03-2005 11:15 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by roxrkool
07-01-2005 3:07 PM


I guess your lucky, or me and chiroptera are drama queens and like to make everything seem like the end of the world. I grew up in a protestant church. I have been to a catholic church once, this saturday actually -I plan to go again, and found it to be fun (even though I dont believe in god). It was much different than I expected and I like it better than the protestant churches I had been to. Ive never experimented with buddhism but I want to.
roxrkool writes:
I never even made it to my first confession because it didn't matter one iota to me, or ever got to eat one of those wafers - which at one time I desperately wanted to taste. LOL
Actually when I went they had communion, apperantly they do this every mass, and I tried the bread but I didnt take the wine because I was the last one in line and everyone was sharing of one big cup. gross.
roxrkool writes:
One such decision, involved my partner at the time. My partner was a severe alcoholic, drug addict, and if anyone knows much about that lifestyle, it comes with a whole host of other problems. I told him I would no longer be a party to either his self-destruction or mine. I was not going to waste the rest of my life worrying about him or wishing I had made other choices. As much as I cared for him (we'd been together 14 years at the time), my life was much too important to me to fling it away on a drunk and drug addict.
way to go!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by roxrkool, posted 07-01-2005 3:07 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
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Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5032 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 11 of 73 (221548)
07-03-2005 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by notwise
07-01-2005 11:33 AM


faculty conflict : take two
The Philosophy Faculty versus the Theology Faculty
by I. Kant in Der Streit Der Fakultaten::
quote:
For there is something in us that we cannot cease to wonder at when we have once seen it, the same thing that rasies humanity in its Idea to a dignity we should never have suspected in man as an object of experience. We do not wonder at the fact that we are beings subject to moral laws and destined by our reason to obey them, even if this means sacrificing whatever pleasures may conflict with them; for obedience to moral laws lies objectively in the natural order of things as the objects of pure reason, and it never occurs to ordinary, sound understanding to ask where these laws come from, in order, perhaps, to put off obeying them until we know their source, or even to doubt their validity. But we do wonder at our ability so to sacrifice our sensuous nature to morality that we can do what we quite readily and clearly conceive we ought to do. This ascendancy of the supersensible, man in us over the sensible, such that (when it comes to a conflict between them) the sensible is nothing, though in its own eyes it is everything, is an object of greatest wonder; and our wonder at this moral predisposition in us, inseperable from out humanity, only increases the longer we contemplate this true (not fabricated) ideal. Since the supersensible in us is inconceivable and yet practical, we can well excuse those who are led to consider it supernatural - that is, to regard it as the influence of another and higher spirit, something not within our power and not belonging to us as our own. Yet they are greatly mistaken in this, since on their view the effect of this power would not be our deed and could not be imputed to us, and so the power to produce it would not be our own.
************************************************************
quote:
Now the real solution to the problem (of the new man) consists in putting to use the Idea of this power,
***********************************************************
quote:
which dwells in us in a way we can not understand, and impressing it on men, beginning in their earliest youth and continuing by public instruction. Even the Bible seems to have nothing else in view: it seems to refer, not to supernatural experiences and fantastic feelings which should take reasons's place in brining about this revolution, but to the spirit of Christ, which he manifested in teachings and examples so that we might make it our own - or rather, since it is already present in us by our moral predisposition, so that we might simply make room for it...This teaching is the true religous doctrine, based on criticism of practical reason, that works with divine power on all men's hearts toward their fundamentl improvement and unites them in one universal (though) invisible church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by notwise, posted 07-01-2005 11:33 AM notwise has not replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 988 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 12 of 73 (221796)
07-04-2005 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by notwise
07-03-2005 11:15 PM


I wouldn't say you were a drama queen. In my case, I was never much of a believer so I never felt like I lost anything. That makes a huge difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by notwise, posted 07-03-2005 11:15 PM notwise has not replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 73 (221939)
07-05-2005 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by roxrkool
07-01-2005 6:20 PM


Right,
You don't have proof that the Easter Bunny, as it is presented, does not exist.
So to say with absolute certainty that it does not exist requires belief without knowing and a level of confidence in your belief without knowing that would put it into faith territory.
The Easter bunny, though is pretty specific.
So is the Abrahamic God.
So, it would require about the same amount of faith to believe in either.
BUT, to totally deny the possibility of any kind of omnipotent or even supernatural being with such a degree of confidence and certainty as to be absolute, then that's faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by roxrkool, posted 07-01-2005 6:20 PM roxrkool has not replied

  
gnojek
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 73 (221940)
07-05-2005 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ramoss
07-02-2005 7:33 PM


IPU?
The Inter-Parlaimentary Union?
Well, whatever the IPU is, if it is something like Interplanetary Union or something involving aliens, then no I don't have faith that it doesn't exist, because I don't know one way or another.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Asgara, posted 07-05-2005 4:55 PM gnojek has replied
 Message 17 by coffee_addict, posted 07-05-2005 5:07 PM gnojek has replied

  
Asgara
Member (Idle past 2302 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 15 of 73 (221943)
07-05-2005 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by gnojek
07-05-2005 4:45 PM


IPU, Invisible Pink Unicorn (PBUHH(Peace Be Upon Her Horn))

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by gnojek, posted 07-05-2005 4:45 PM gnojek has replied

Replies to this message:
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