What is The Atonement?

I don't blame you a bit.The idea that some blood sacrifice would be demanded or accepted is abhorrent.Fortunately that is not exactly what most Christians think happened.The Gospel, the story of the New Testament is a two part tale, the message, that mankind is forgiven, and the teachings.The sacrifice was not so much Jesus death, but rather the fact that he lived. He became man.The important thing then shifts to his teachings, trying to convey the message that man was saved, all mankind, and how we should live our lives.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

You can. But...If you look at some of the basic things in the Christian Faith you might find a different interpretation.For example in the Nicene Creed... Pay particular attention to the section "who for us and for our salvation
came down from heaven
and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary
and was made man;"This is seperated by colons to stand as a discrete statement.It points to our belief that GOD becoming Man was the basic sacrifice. His death, which is covered in the next section, again delimited by colons, is simply a continuation of his life.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Again, while that may be true in some Christian Churches, it's not the case in the majority. Particularly in the Protestant churchs, the cross is bare. No Body, no nail holes, no blood.It is a rememberance of the tragedy of Jesus death, but more an affirmation. The cross is empty, death denied, Christ reborn.You can see that reflected as well in the Nicene Creed. The central Christian symbol IMHO is the rock removed. The high points of the year are Christmas and Easter, moments related to Birth and Re-Birth.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Oh, we most certainly face the crucifixion. It happened in our belief. It was a horrid and horrendous act of man. Not of GOD, of man at its worst.But that is only one part of the story. Christianity is so much more than death. It's a religion of life. It is life beyond life. It is an affirmation that the Gift given freely, the Gift of Salvation, transcends even the most horrific acts of man.It is a message of hope and a lesson of how to live that life.Love GOD, and love others as you love yourself.It really is as simple as that.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

That's not exactly how I see it but I know that many folk try to pitch pablum like that. I hope you don't think that I have that little respect for you or what you're capable of doing.Love God and love others as you love yourself is simple, but it sure as hell isn't easy.The first thing in that statement is often overlooked. Way to many folk hear and somehow miss the fact that the second of the Great Commandments is a two parter.Love others as you love yourself.That second part is probably the hardest step in the whole process. To love yourself you first need to know yourself, both the good and the bad. You then have to try, even if you don't succeed, to get your own life together.That's work, unpleasant, easy to try to cop out of through some pablum concept like "We're all sinners" or other such crap.Please understand that I'm not trying to convert you to Christianity or any other such brainwashing nonsense. If a person can do what's needed under the second Great Commandment they'll enjoy life. The first Great Commandment will take care of itself.If one works towards the second Commandment, starting with trying to figure out how one loves oneself, then trying to love others in the same way, whether they are Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist, Confucian, Satanist, Hindu, Muslim or whatever, their life improves.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Yes, Jesus death was but part of his life.One of the, at least for me, sad things about the teachings of Jesus, but also one of the most miraculous features, is that his ministry was only a few years. He only lived about 33 years and we have accounts of only those few years when he began expanding his ministry beyond his family.Jesus death was at the hands of man. One reason that I think the accounts might be true is the fact that they are so different from other such accounts in the Bible.Look at the Mack Sennett comedy called the Flight from Egypt. There we see GOD the Director stage managing everything for maximum effect.Moshe says "Let my people go!"Pharoah says "Okay."God the Director says, "Wait, I just don't see that. We need more drama. Harden Pharoah's heart and make him change his mind. And leave it as a cliffhanger so we can get them back in next week."The story of Jesus death doesn't play out like that. It's far more what one would expect if it were an account of a real event.Jesus death was but a part of normal life in that era. Remember, on the day he was crucified, he was only one of three that we know about, in a small backwater provence of Rome. It's likely that there were hundreds if not thousands of people crucified throughout the Empire on the very same day.But what if he had lived, and taught, across a lifespan similar to the Buddha, Confucius or Mencius?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

LOLNo problem my friend.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Ain't that the truth.I think that's probably the message of the "Way is wide but the Gate is narrow" and perhaps the most misunderstood part of Christianity.IMHO the quote above is directed straight at Christians. Too many of them seem to think they've been given some Get out of Hell Free" card, that they're in and everone else is out.I don't think that's what it means at all.I think it's refering to those Christians that forget that everything hangs on the two Great Commandments. When Christians discriminate against others, whether other Christians, Non-Christians, Gays or just take any exclusionary position, then IMHO, they miss the gate.Paul was building a franchise. He was a great man but terribly flawed. He had no problem twisting facts to meet the needs of the franchise and was one hell of a spin doctor.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

if jesus LIVED for anything, it was to show us that. god sacrificed him by giving him to us. we killed him, not god. remember that.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Jesus death most certainly an act of Man, not of GOD.The sacrifice was God becoming Man, not Jesus death. Jesus was born to die, like all other men. If he had not been crucified he'dmost likely died an old man in bed, Mary beside him and a glass of very good wine on the nightstand.To say that GOD killed God does not make very much sense unless the God is stupid or absurd.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Please point out where I said that. Since you placed in quotes I assume you also know the post.I have pointed that out to you several times. It is based on the two Great Commandments and Matthew 25 (as well as John 3 and other places).Judgement will be based on what you do, not what you say.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

He became MAN. Human. Human's die.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

First, I'm still waiting for you to point out where I said what you quote me as saying. It should be easy, you even placed my comment in quotes. Huh? We'll in many ways the Bible is not accurate or even consistent. That's not opinion, it's fact. I have, repeatedly. Praise GOD for small miracles.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Okay. So you are trying to paraphrase my position. Fine. But I think you've gotten it wrong.That's probably my fault, I'm old, slow and often have a hard time making myself understood. So let me try again.Salvation is given. It was given by GOD to all mankind.The gift is free. Gratas. Without strings. Done deal. To all, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, Atheist, Hindu, Agnostic, Pagan, Satanist, Rastafarian, Confucian, Taoist, everybody.That's the end of that story.As to Matthew 25, you can fudge it and misread it anyway you want to give YOU the warm fuzzies. That's fine. I don't really care how you twist it.But It's actually pretty damn clear and simple. In case you don't have a copy handy, I'll include it again. It starts by saying that ALL people a gathered together. Everyone. Atheist and Christian, Jew and Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist, Taoist and Rastafarian; all people. Everybody.Next they are divided into two groups, the sheep and the goats.It goes on to explain how the selections are made, and the explanation is based on behavior. No mention of belief. No mention of profession EXCEPT by the Goats. They are shocked. They thought they would be the ones saved.The talk is also very clear that the behavior of those saved was NOT because they were Christians. It's not their belief that motivated their behavior, else they would not have been surprised. A Christian knows that what he does for others is also for Christ. Look at the condemnation in John 3.The GOATs are believers. They are followers of Christ, Christians. They, like many Christians just didn't understand what GOD wants us to do.The Atonement is done. GOD has forgiven. But GOD also has asked us to try, that word again, to live a good life. It's the message of the Bible from Genesis right on through. The story of Adam & Eve are about that. The whole Knowledge of Good & Evil is about that.We are expected to try to do what's right.We cannot succeed or reach perfection. GOD knows that. She is not stupid, afterall, it made us.But we must try to love ourselves, treat others as we would like them to treat us, and that is called Loving GOD. It really is as simple as that.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Actually, in John 3 the condemnation is not even death, but rather related to actions, behavior.John 3 continues to describe the condemnation asfollows It returns to knowing people by their behavior, not what beliefs they profess.

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion