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Author Topic:   What is The Atonement?
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 151 of 202 (252813)
10-18-2005 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Legend
10-18-2005 3:23 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
Legend writes:

But I thought you said God had forgiven us ?!

Nah mate. Thats the Gospel according to Jar :)

Forgiveness is available to all, the gift is available to all. One of the numerous things that happen during the headline action of salvation is forgiveness of sins. But it occurs in the process of salvation. If the process never happens then the forgiveness never occurs.

The general sequence is as follows:

A person recognises (by whatever form that triggers it: want/despair/guilt/pain/advancing age/flash of inspiration/nature around them) their need of God to be the one to save them (in whatever form 'save' is formulated in them)

God then:

Justifies them: ie: he doesn't see them as sinners (unrighteous) but righteous. Or rather clothed in Christs righteousness. He forgives all their sin: every one, no matter how appalling. All sins past, present and future. And he lets them know that. It is quite refreshing - especially if you've alot of baggage.

He adopts them as sons (and daughters). The person feels peace. They have been at war with God (even if they didn't see it as such) so the peace is tanglible.

He moves into the person: whereas before God was separate from man in spirit, now he dwells in the man. The purpose of the Spirit is multifold but include in varying degrees: confirming to the person that God has moved in, guiding the person in the way that God wants them to go, interceding with the father on the persons behalf - like it's not like we can speak Gods 'language'.

Begins the process of sanctification: could be seen as training the person for life in heaven

Makes the person feel like an alien on earth. Sounds like it wouldn't be nice but it's not unpleasant

There are other things too and the degree in which a person experiences these will vary. No matter. Some won't feel a sense of assurance of salvation. But it doesn't mean they aren't saved. If God has saved then that is that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Legend, posted 10-18-2005 3:23 PM Legend has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2005 12:37 AM iano has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 152 of 202 (252820)
10-18-2005 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Heathen
10-18-2005 3:19 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
Crevo writes:

but that's exactly what you claim... we are all born sinners.. doomed to hell...separate from god.

All born infected. The weeping sores of the infection (sin) will all too soon manifest the infection

You have claimed that that a child born with an illness or deformitty is suffering for the sins of it's father

Adam sinned, then sinful nature entered him as a disease. In that sense, the child (and everyone) is suffering in being infected with the same disease - a consequence of Adams action.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Heathen, posted 10-18-2005 3:19 PM Heathen has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by purpledawn, posted 10-18-2005 4:21 PM iano has responded
 Message 155 by Heathen, posted 10-18-2005 5:31 PM iano has responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 153 of 202 (252821)
10-18-2005 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
10-18-2005 4:13 PM


The Sinful Nature
quote:
Adam sinned, then sinful nature entered him as a disease. In that sense, the child (and everyone) is suffering in being infected with the same disease - a consequence of Adams action.
Where do you get this stuff from?


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:13 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:33 PM purpledawn has responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 18 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 202 (252826)
10-18-2005 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 153 by purpledawn
10-18-2005 4:21 PM


Re: The Sinful Nature
PD writes:

Where do you get this stuff from?

I make it up as I go along :)

nah only kidding PD. I get it from the same place you do, the same place where we get the idea of the Trinity.

Try Romans 5:12

Sure sounds like an epidemic to me..

This message has been edited by iano, 18-Oct-2005 09:35 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by purpledawn, posted 10-18-2005 4:21 PM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by purpledawn, posted 10-18-2005 8:25 PM iano has responded

  
Heathen
Member (Idle past 93 days)
Posts: 1042
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 155 of 202 (252835)
10-18-2005 5:31 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by iano
10-18-2005 4:13 PM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
So as a consequence of adams action, the child is not only spiritually dead, but is now (for instance) terminally ill/deformed.

how on earth can you reconcile this with...

iano writes:

Deu 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

clearly in this situation the child is being punished (spirituallly dead, sentanced to physical death, sentenced to a life of hardship and ridicule because of something Adam did 4,000 years ago?

You are welcome to your god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:13 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 7:14 AM Heathen has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1535 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 202 (252857)
10-18-2005 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
10-18-2005 4:33 PM


Re: The Sinful Nature
That's Paul's teaching though. Where does Jesus or Judaism present the idea of sin as a disease.


"The average man does not know what to do with this life, yet wants another one which lasts forever." --Anatole France
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 4:33 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:39 AM purpledawn has responded
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 157 of 202 (252904)
10-18-2005 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by iano
10-18-2005 6:59 AM


Re: stupid question
I didn't say die more or less. I said suffer more or less.

...

How can your sins today be punished in him then

that's what we're asking.

if not in the eternal realm?

because THAT bit doesn't make sense. god may be eternal, but we are not. we see time sequentially.

I think your missing the overall message of Romans to whit:

Everybody is born a sinner, dead in their transgression and sins, enemies of God, hating Gods laws, all have fallen short of the glory of God, spiritually blind, not able to know God, not able to please God etc, etc. Everbody is born this way. All have default Hell stamped on them.

check. so far i'm not not missing anything -- death, suffering, we suck, god hates us.

i still say paul is wrong.

What happens to a person who comes to believe is that this 'old man' is put to death. The old sinful nature, the one that has the characteristics listed above, the one we were born with - is put to death, crucified in Christ. And a righteous spirit is born. A spirit that is alive to Christ, alive to God, at peace with God, not subject to condemnation.

yes, i've read romans. christ didn't promise that i would die and someone new would be born. he promised that i would live forever. i still fail to see the "death, suffering, god hates us" part of jesus's message in the gospel.

where does paul get it from? it's not the ot.

You miss (why I do not know) the other half of what Paul says.

because it's based on a LIE.

not all men are sinful, some do not sin according to the bible. not all sin demands death. not all sin demands sacrifice. sacrifice is not demanded, it's OFFERED. one cannot atone for another. one cannot atone before sinning.

paul's view is that god hates his children, and has rigged a cruel game against them. we are to follow a law he put in place, contrary to our nature which he created. even if we do follow the law, we're still sinful, and every minor misdeed demands our death.

paul's implications about god's character, frankly, are blasphemy. god's love for his children, god's forgiveness and compassion are spoken to throughout the entire bible. men are described as perfect and sinless -- a few of which clearly sinned prior to that description. how can that be? david says that god doesn't require sacrifices.

why then does paul think god is some evil clockwork fixated on damning his own creation?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 6:59 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 7:33 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 158 of 202 (252906)
10-18-2005 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by iano
10-18-2005 7:32 AM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
Now if God choses not to exist, then he would (if he is able to do ANYTHING..as you suggest) be able to re-exist again. But how can something that doesn't exist make himself re-exist?

did god always exist? how did he come to be? i suspect these have the same answer.

certainly not the faith in jesus's death -- just in who he was. here's some forgiven for LOVE, not faith:

In the same way your sins can be forgiven in Christ now although he died then, her sins can be forgiven in Christ even though he had yet to die. Eternity isn't limited by time.

uh, no. there was nothing in that passage about death at all. no condition of death. nothing. just faith in christ's ability and personage.

Luk 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

where is faith mentioned?

It's not mentioned. Because this is Law. And you, nor I nor anyone can follow it.

it's not Law, capital L. we've been over this. the Law, capital L, is ha-torah, the five books of moses, or the code contained there within, depending on context. jesus speaking it does not make it law -- read the other books of the prophets. they all sound abotu the same.

Ever judged anyone Arach?

no.

Ever condemned anyone?

no.

Ever not forgiven someone?

no.

An answer in the affirmative is a given. Thus Arach, you will be judged and not forgiven - according to the Law.

still not the Law.

iano writes:

As i pointed out above. God is constrained by the impossibility of acting counter to himself.

arach writes:

not so. god cannot act counter to himself any more than you or i can.

Read it again. We're saying the same thing in fact. God cannot act counter to his himself. Counter to his nature

no, you read it again, and read the rest of it this time too. you're saying that god has a nature that clearly defines what he is, and if he could act contrary to that nature he would not be god.

i'm saying that nobody can act contrary to their nature becuase whatever they do is by definition in their nature. god acting contrary to his nature makes his nature contrary. which, if you've read the bible, is no suprise.

wrath and compassion? that's a pretty wide swath of a nature.

God punished sin in Christ.

god killed an innocent man, his own son even. that makes him not just. if justness is defined according to your particulary view -- that sin must be punished -- then it follows that god must punish sin if he is to be just.

punishing an innocent bystander and letting the criminal go free is NOT justice. ever.

Its the person who happens to be bearing it that suffers.

this is based on a mistaken assumption that laying the hands on your sacrifice according to levitical standards is transfer of sin. if that's the case, alot of sin ends up in the levites, who eat certain kinds of sin offerings.

really, it's the other way around.

quote:
Lev 6:25 Speak unto Aaron and to his sons, saying, This [is] the law of the sin offering: In the place where the burnt offering is killed shall the sin offering be killed before the LORD: it [is] most holy.
Lev 6:26 The priest that offereth it for sin shall eat it: in the holy place shall it be eaten, in the court of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 6:27 Whatsoever shall touch the flesh thereof shall be holy:

strange, no?

Did you read the drug analogy. Our law punishes the possessor of the cocaine. The cocaine can change possession and the new possessor recieve the punishment instead of the original possessor. Christ was punished because he took our sin into his possession.

if i sell an undercover cop some rock, but i don't have any left when he arrests me, do you think "but i don't have any now, the cop has it; arrest him!" would fly in court?

i don't think so. possession is not 9/10th's of the law.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:32 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 7:52 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 159 of 202 (252908)
10-19-2005 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by iano
10-18-2005 7:51 AM


Re: if we have free will, surely god must too
arach writes:

Jhn 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

What did she call him again?

certainly not "dead guy nailed to a peice of wood."

I trip, and fall, and while i'm off balance and flailing for something to steady myself on, i accidentally clock you and break your noise.

Wheres the accident? You weren't paying attention, looking where you were going. You know that if you do this then 'accidents' can happen and that people can get hurt.

wait, so, accidents can happen, and everybody knows this, therefor nothing is an accident?

And I'm hurt. Under Law (an eye for an eye) I'm entitled to smack you in the nose.

since you keep using the teachings of jesus as "the Law" no, you're not:

quote:
Mat 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
Mat 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

technically, under "the Law," you're required to provide me with something else on your body to harm -- especially if it wasn't really an accident like you said it's not.

I forgive. I take the consequences of your inattention but sacrifice my right to have justice. Sacrifice an Eye for an Eye.

then the sacrifice in god forgiving is him sacrificing his right to justice.

You got an infection (a sinful nature) from your father - Adam. But it's not the infection that will be punished - its the sin. And that sin is your own. No conflict here.

"predisposition" sounds more accurate i think. but presumably, then, if i don't ever sin, i'm justified by the law and don't need salvation in christ, right? if it's just the sin that's punished...

Enoch and Job sinned alright. Righteous in Gods sight doesn't mean a man never sins.

quote:
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name [was] Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

quote:
Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

what do you suppose perfect means? normally, it means "without flaw" as in "following the law without flaw"

Jesus never sinned, that much is correct. But he is unique: the purpose of the virgin birth was to break the sinful nature infected line from Adam

so says st augustine, yes. he was convinced that original sin is delivered through sperm.

but take note -- eve was the mother of all mankind, including jesus, who was at least half human. eve was the first to sin, though possibly in ignorance. if the tendency and predisposition to sin is part of human nature, jesus had it too.

examples don't work well when held to different standards. if jesus's LIFE meant anything, it was an example. it was god showing us he understands, and demonstrating how to overcome things like our nature. without that little bit, most of it's meaningless. jesus might as well have been a noncorporeal spirit, like the gnostics believed. his physical human existance would have been meaningless.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:51 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 10-19-2005 8:21 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 160 of 202 (252909)
10-19-2005 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by iano
10-18-2005 7:55 AM


the gospel according to jesus
Arachs "Salvation by having your heart in the right place"

Where are these concepts laid out in the bible?

you've quoted some of it yourself.

remember. when jesus was alive, he never spoke of being saved by believing in his death, except maybe in the gospel of john. the other three are filled with lots and lots of other advice about how to think and how to feel, and how to treat others. don't believe me?

quote:
Luk 19:8-9 And Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken any thing from any man by false accusation, I restore [him] fourfold. And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.

salvation by giving away your wordly possesions seems to be a theme. think rich man, camel, eye of the needle.

quote:
Mat 19:21-26

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow me. But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. When his disciples heard [it], they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved? But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


here's some more of how JESUS says you get saved:

quote:
Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

quote:
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

we mentioned this before, and how it doesn't refer to anythign relating to death, but love:

quote:
Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, [the same] loveth little.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.


this one's a little cryptic, but i think it's talking about that proper mindset thing, being upright and honest:

quote:
Luk 13:23-24 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able

no death here, just faith in jesus's healing powers:

quote:
Luk 18:41-42 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight. And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

here's the preists mocking jesus:

quote:
Mat 27:42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.

note that jesus dies 9 verses later, yet saved is in past tense. though the priests are making fun of him, it's evidence that he was walking around during his life, calling people "saved."

now, i don't like the book of john much, but it does sum up my point nicely:

quote:
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

and here's the single salvation-by-death (actually, salvation by resurrection) mention made by jesus, post-death. note that baptism is half the requirment, not faith alone:

quote:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

so. where does this whole death fascination come from?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 7:55 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by jar, posted 10-19-2005 12:27 AM arachnophilia has responded
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 161 of 202 (252911)
10-19-2005 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by iano
10-18-2005 9:23 AM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
A command is a command is it not. A law is a law. It not?

no, it is not. the jews have a hierarchy of laws. the torah, the Law, capital L, and the mosaic code within, are the highest law, and the ten commandments the top of those. below that there is the talmud and the oral law, and the midrashim and various other commentary.

jesus's words are in line with the midrashim and the nevi'im (prophetic books: isaiah, jeremiah, ezekiel, and the 12)

Plenty of repitition as to what light this should be seen. That logic says it must mean this etc, that my reality proves it etc. On the one hand "The bible says" on the other "the bible isn't accurate"

some cursory understanding of the bible, what it is, and what's in it are generally good things.

Show the bible backs up what (you say) the bible says or lets leave it at that Jar. I'm done with all "your own reality" and "this bit of the map is correct that isn't" subjectivity

see my post above. given the choice between what jesus says saves, and what paul says saves, who would you choose to put your faith with?


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 9:23 AM iano has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 202 (252912)
10-19-2005 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by arachnophilia
10-19-2005 12:20 AM


Re: the gospel according to jesus
Actually, in John 3 the condemnation is not even death, but rather related to actions, behavior.

John 3 continues to describe the condemnation asfollows

19: And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20: For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

It returns to knowing people by their behavior, not what beliefs they profess.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:20 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by arachnophilia, posted 10-19-2005 12:45 AM jar has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 163 of 202 (252915)
10-19-2005 12:29 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by purpledawn
10-18-2005 10:27 AM


Re: Law To Be Kept Perfectly
quote:
"Love God with all your heart.."

Oddly enough, this one isn't really a part of the Mosaic Law.

nitpick: that's more or less the same thing as "no other gods before me." just kind of a reinterpretation/elaboration of the same concept.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by purpledawn, posted 10-18-2005 10:27 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by purpledawn, posted 10-19-2005 9:28 AM arachnophilia has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 164 of 202 (252916)
10-19-2005 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by iano
10-18-2005 1:13 PM


Re: Ransom to the Devil
ramoss writes:

So, god paid himself a ransom so that he wouldn't destroy the people he is created yet again?

God isn't going to nor ever has destroyed a human. Thats the horror of hell for you. And the joy of heaven.

translation problem. some people don't believe in the afterlife. i don't think traditional jews do, as there is little indication of it in the tanakh.

substitute "punish eternally" or "kill (in the spiritual sense)" for "destroy" and then proceed to answer the question.


אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by iano, posted 10-18-2005 1:13 PM iano has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 55 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 165 of 202 (252917)
10-19-2005 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by ramoss
10-18-2005 2:05 PM


Re: Sin Against God
Mainly anything of the rules that are described in Levatiucs.. there so so many, SOMEONE is bound to break them sometime.

There also seems to be a different sense about what 'sin' is between
the Jewish religion and the christian religion.

Sin , literally , means 'to miss the mark'. It means that someone made the wrong choice, or did not do the best they could. In the Christian
religion, there seems to be an all powerful' SIN' that corrupts everyone.
The concept of sin being 'corrupt' and dirty is absent from the Jewish concept. The idea that man is this inherently evil being (orginal sin), does not exist at all. Man is viewed at inherently good, not inherently evil. There is the 'urge to do good' balanced by the 'urge to do evil'.

i should have been a jew. :P

i think this is a much more sensible ideology, and one that actually fits with most of the bible.


אָרַח

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