Agnosticism and Origins

Of course I'm curious. I've always been extraordinarily curious about everything. So you enjoy learning and learning is one great thing that gives meaning to your life. So basically, your meaning boils down to self-gratification through learning. Why is that all anyone can give me for meaning of life outside of God is self-gratification? The two seem mutally opposed. Yeah... that's a little off as far as this fundie is concerned, but I'll leave it alone. I believe goddunit is the ultimate explanation for reality, but reality is unfathomably complex and I want to know the intricacies of HOW goddunit.

Well, it's nice to say that all scientists are disciplined enough to refrain from "believing" in their theories and continually cast doubt, but in order to avoid cognitive dissonance us mere mortals must allow ourselves to lean one way or the other and begin to "believe" what is true.But to make it clear, I don't want to make this thread about "belief" in evolution.

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What was the biggest thing that caused you stop believing in God?

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there is no evidence for any of the myriad supreme beings of the various religions of the world. I find the concept of a human like god/gods etc. contradicts the randomness observed in the universe and places too much emphasis on the importance and superiority of humans. [quote]When did you stop believing in God?[/qoute]
When I was 10,..and before I even knew about the theory of evolution

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When did you start believing in evolution?

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I don't believe in evolution. I accept the theory of evolution based on my own scientific research and that of others. It is the best (though incomplete) explanation of past and present biodiversity. I expect the theory to be highly modified as new data is obtained as is the case with all scientific theories.

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Do you think God: a) probably does not exist b) probably does exist c) is unknowable d) it doesn't matterIf God should exist, how would you feel about him?

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The same way I would feel if a giant galactic goat named Pablo was the causitive factor for all things in the universe...see above answer d)

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Any comments about mine or my friend's position?

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If you take a literalist position with regard to the bible or any religious text, you will constantly be required to reject reality (and not just from the point of view of the biological sciences). If you do not take a literalist position, then science and religion do not overlap.

Hello again 'dawg,This probably won't have much bearing to you, or your friend's position, because I backed into agnosticism from the opposite direction to Asgara (for example), but I thought I'd add a different perspective. I was brought up in an atheist household (my Dad is a very lapsed catholic, so you can't get much more atheist )and in the last few years I have softened my stance. Therefore the only questions I can answer are the last two: Probably C, there's no real evidence for either A or B but even if God did exist, how would I know who was right about him? I'd want to know more

HangDawg says:

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I believe goddunit is the ultimate explanation for reality, but reality is unfathomably complex and I want to know the intricacies of HOW goddunit.

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Funny, because I don't think "goddunit" is either ultimate or explanatory. Obviously if the reality God created is unfathomably complex, He must be pretty complex Himself, so what's the explanation for Him? Or is that where your curiosity ends?I was raised a Catholic but turned skeptic through realizing that reality, morality, and the rest are all the same whether you believe in God or not. If God exists, He would only want us to do Good, so what's the difference whether we do Good at his behest or simply through wanting to do Good? If evolution is true, then wouldn't He want us to understand and appreciate the reality and history of life on Earth instead of believing ancient folk tales?

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Why is that all anyone can give me for meaning of life outside of God is self-gratification? The two seem mutally opposed.

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And you don't believe in God because of His promise of Earthly rewards or a sweet deal in the afterlife? What if God told you that believing in Him had to be its own reward?regards,
Esteban Hambre

To Hangdawg13: I think you're attributing too much on the head of your pet phrase "cognitive dissonance".If you are to doubt the professionalism of scientists in Biology, in specific Evolutionary Biology, why then don't you cast the same doubts over, say, Astrophysics or Organic Chemistry. This selective suspicion is a clear signal of your inherent bias.I don't want to go off topic any more than you do, but loaded questions should never appear in discussions - it is almost a form of deceit - let alone the opening post. You are in essence forcing others to commit to a position they don't want to commit to, and I believe that is wrong.

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"Respect is like money, it can only be earned. When it is given, it becomes pittance"

Hi Dawg, thank you for the clarification. I think I can address both issues in one answer.It is hard to give a direct answer to your question about how I would feel about the Judeo/Christian god if he exists. With the internal inconsistancies in the Xian description of their god, I do not believe that this particular god CAN exist.I guess if you were to insist on an answer I would feel this god to be like Trelayne in Star Trek's Squire of Gothos. A child left to "play god" in a private playground.As far as the internal inconsistencies go, I do not mean inconsistent passages in the bible about whether there were 40 horses or 4000 or whether this king was 18 or 38 when he ruled, or whether or not Jesus was descended from a line of David that was never to have offspring on the throne. (or even WHICH line, Solomon or Nathan). I'm talking about logical inconsistencies concerning the description of god, omniscient/omnibenevolent/omnipotent/infallible. These descriptors can not logically exist in the same being, especially when you throw in the Xian concept of free will. I won't get into the why's here, as we have had threads dedicated to these concepts. I will discuss them elsewhere if you wish. edited too add teh obligatory speeling errrrrrerrrrsThis message has been edited by Asgara, 08-17-2004 02:11 PM

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Thank you for your reply. So you have also first rejected God's existence based on a lack of "supernatural" evidence and then reinforced your position by equating God, if He should exist, with a "galactic goat named Pablo".

Thank you for your reply. Well, I've been trying to define in my mind what would be evidence for God. I can't decide which evidence would be more impressive: natural or supernatural. Obviously a little change from the norm impresses us mere mortals. But after reading a little about quantum theory and chaos theory, I'm not so sure supernatural intervention is grander than the very existence of the universe.As to how you would know who's right about him... I suppose you would have to investigate all the claims, have an open mind, and ask him to help you to know who's right. According to the Bible anyone who wants to know God will not be ignored or turned away.

Thank you for your reply. Yep. Never enters my mind with regards to belief in Him. It is.

How does this mesh with my (and I believe others') experience. I truly believed myself to be a good Christian, I attended a bible believing church multiple times a week, I studied bible doctrine with our Pastor. I not only thought I was a good Christian, I WANTED to be one. I looked for the signs that others said would show me the way, I waited for "that feeling" to envelope me, I searched for god. I honestly believed that the reason I wasn't quite feeling what others were was because I wasn't trying hard enough so I worked harder at it. I read the bible, I prayed, I asked for guidance on a daily basis, I spent most of my free time in fellowship with fellow Christians. I spent a lot of time over many years waiting for god to show me that I wasn't being ignored or turned away.The more I felt disinfranchised the more I searched and read outside sources. The more questions I asked and the more I was given no real answer. People kept telling me that if I asked I would be answered. Well that could only go on so long before I started questioning everything I was told. Once I started asking questions that was the beginning of the end. A lack of answers only lead to more questions. A study of logic and of other religions was the true end for me.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Thank you for your reply. So you too have your own reduced defamed version of God if he were to exist. It seems like most solid athiests/agnostics do this... they reject God based on his character as they understand it and/or lack of supernatural evidence, and then create a repulsive image of him if he should exist. These things have never bothered me, even from the mechanical aspect of it... even though I am on track to be an engineer. God and the reality he creates is not a set of mechanical parts that chug along each performing a task. It is more fluid and connected than that. I don't know how to explain it.

I really believe that the Bible and Religion are the two biggest barriers between the individual and GOD. GOD often speaks in a small, quiet voice and it can be lost in the clamour and cacophony of the church.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

I don't think I created a 'defamed' version of god. I took what was said in the bible and what I was told in church and carried it to it's logical conclusion. You also have to remember that I do not believe this child-god to exist. It is just literary character study. You also have to admit that you accept "God based on his character as they understand it"I also, am not claiming that this child-god view is repulsive. It is just a character study.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com

Oh I totally agree Jar, "Christianity" has turned more people away from the teachings of Christ than anything.It amazes me how many people claim to follow the teachings of Jesus but when you look at just what they believe, it is more like the teachings of Paul that they follow.

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Asgara
"Embrace the pain, spank your inner moppet, whatever....but get over it"http://asgarasworld.bravepages.com
http://perditionsgate.bravepages.com