Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,838 Year: 4,095/9,624 Month: 966/974 Week: 293/286 Day: 14/40 Hour: 3/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Biblical God Incompatible With Big Bang.
Phat
Member
Posts: 18343
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 43 of 149 (380024)
01-26-2007 6:06 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by cavediver
01-24-2007 1:11 PM


Synopsis
cavediver writes:
If god is bound to our time and he is everywhere in our universe then do bits of him get destroyed in black hole singularities? Or does he withdraw his presence - just in time? Perhaps god has never seen inside an event horizon!
We could endlessly speculate. Perhaps Black Holes are akin to Hell. Or perhaps they are portals that lead to Hell, since Hell is an unimaginably small place made large in an unimaginably selfish mind.
PaulK writes:
Couldn't God create the Universe and then set up his throne within it ? Simce God is said to be a spirit, a non-physical being, would he need space to exist in ?
This was a good one! I always wondered why Heaven had to be a literal place as well.. literal meaning tangible. Why would streets of gold be needed? Are people even in need of streets? why not just sidewalks? And when they pass one another, will they pretend to ignore each other or mutter a quick hello as we do on earth?
Son Goku writes:
words like before and outside making little sense when talking about spacetime as a whole.
The words that come to my mind when talking about the origin of all that we know is the word "imagination". I speculate that perhaps God created by imagining. Unlike humans who recreate reality through imagination, (since whatever we imagine needs to be explained by words, formulas and numbers or drawings) God is the source of the actual definitions with which we use to explain and quantify things. At least thats my current belief.
Archer Opteriz writes:
Metaphor is the only way to talk about these things. But one has to know one is using metaphor. If you talk naively about time 'before' time and space 'outside' space, you'll get called on it. And if you talk naively about a noncorporeal being sitting on a throne, you'll get called on that, too.
Anyone who talks about metaphysical beings has to talk as if they sit on thrones, as if they fly, sing, change their minds, etc. But it doesn't do to be literal. These images are ways of picturing that which cannot be pictured. The ancients could only talk and think in terms of the universe they lived in, as we do.
Thats why I cant see the need for tangible houses, thrones, and streets in Heaven unless God chose to make it that way for its occupants. (hopefully us, if we are to be placed somewhere upon physical death)
anastasia writes:
It is easy to think about a pre-existing God...leaves plenty of room in the comfort zone. Don't have to worry about explaining God or containing God. But you have to be honest with yourself and realize that it is impossible to imagine God existing anywhere without a boundary.
Thats why I find it easier to relate to God through Jesus Christ since Jesus does have a boundry...that being His body. I might also point out that we need to own the idea of which came first:
  • God...imagining/creating us?
    or
  • Us. Imagining/defining God?
    Archer Opterix writes:
    We necessarily think in pictures. Pictures involve boundaries.
    And ideas involve limitations.
    God may well be limitless, but my idea of God carries my limitations and conceptions as necessary attachments.
    Occasionally, He taps me on my Cerebral Cortex and I get a finite idea to share with others. I have yet to be able to handle any infinite ideas that He may have, however.
    Archer writes:
    The paradox: our picture most faithfully portrays the boundless once we have no picture at all.
    Maybe thats why we need to become blind in order to see.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by cavediver, posted 01-24-2007 1:11 PM cavediver has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18343
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 129 of 149 (381179)
    01-30-2007 5:54 AM
    Reply to: Message 101 by Buzsaw
    01-28-2007 6:56 PM


    Beliefs, Origins, and Theories
    Buzsaw writes:
    The problem is with the information your theists claim to have which leads back to the singularity. It leaves the BB theist with no before and no outside of for the Biblical god Jehovah and things around him to exist. The BB alegedly was a submicroscopic bit of space containing all the energy and space the universe now consists of. The only place for Jehovah and things described around him is within the submicroscopid bit of space superdensely compacted in the hot speck.
    Here is my belief: When God imagines, God creates. God has nothing to do with the singularity, unless you are a Pantheist. God imagined and created long before (if time has any meaning in this scenario) You or I were even thought of...before elements even had properties...before words had meanings. God is, in my belief, the uncaused first cause.
    Buzsaw writes:
    Your problem is that Percy, Jar, Phat and a number of you believe this spirit exists as well as his son Jesus whom their Bible declares to be with God at this time. If this spirit being exists with his son and other spirit beings, where was he existing during and before the singularity if there was not outside of the singularity?
    Jesus and God are One. Jesus is and was Gods character in human form.
    Whether or not anyone can define and speculate the properties, parameters, and characteristics of God is irrelevant. God is God, regardless of any definitions that we humans attach. (IMB, anyway) And I will even go so far to say that God is not contained within my belief. God transcends anything that I can imagine. God transcends any properties assigned. IMB, Jesus is Gods character, but if God wants to extrapolate the I AM ness of the I AM, God is certainly going to do so....no matter what my Bible teachers have taught me and no matter what I or You or Anyone else believes. Oh....and just for clarification, IMB There is no God and Jesus and other Spirit Beings. There is basically two spirits. One of them is the Creator. (so there is but One Spirit) in that He was, He is, and He always will be.
    The other impostor spirit is only allowed to exist as a distinction in definition. he once was, now is not, and yet is for those whose names have not been written in the Book Of Life. (Of course, this is my personal belief, and was shaped by my Bible reading and understanding. I await further clarification from God on this matter.
    AbE: Upon further reflection, I believe that all things were created by Jesus..as representative of Gods character...(thus by God)
    so if God were to have a body, that body would be Jesus. I suppose that IF God wanted to have a body apart from Jesus, God could certainly do so. I stick with my belief that God is Spirit, however.
    Perhaps I am becoming a Oneness Pentecostal, here. I always thought of myself as Trinitarian, yet find it hard to grasp the concept...(although it is very believable to me)
    Edited by Phat, : clarification

    Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
    * * * * * * * * * *

    "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."-
    --Sir Isaac Newton

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 101 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2007 6:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18343
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 130 of 149 (381182)
    01-30-2007 6:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 106 by Buzsaw
    01-28-2007 8:02 PM


    A Matter Of Belief
    Buzsaw writes:
    1. My faith in God is based on the fact that I see the Biblical account of him as proven to be credible. When the "holes that secular science has yet to explain" essentially cancel out the Biblical god leaving him without an area of existence and rendering him temporal, I must choose which I consider to be the most credible. The Biblical account wins over the BB thermodynamically and on almost all accounts, imo.
    2. All powerful? Again the Biblical god Jehovah is the power god creating, designing, managing the whole universe today, yesterday and forever whereas the BB god does nothing but watch, has no area to exist in and couldn't have existed more than a few billion years.
    Let me see if I understand you correctly. You maintain that a scientist and/or a cosmological (as opposed to Biblical) Creationist limit the concept of God by our vain imaginations as to how things came to be...despite the scientific disciplines of some of us and despite the belief that His Spirit is within some of us.
    In other words, according to your belief, the Bible explains everything and is a proper place to start. While I won't disagree that In The Beginning was the Word...I believe that God won't punish us for thinking. We just have to be careful whether or not we are glorifying His imagination/creative insight imparted into us, or whether we are vainly speculating by not considering Him as a proper source.
    Does that sum it up?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 106 by Buzsaw, posted 01-28-2007 8:02 PM Buzsaw has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18343
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 131 of 149 (381184)
    01-30-2007 6:44 AM
    Reply to: Message 122 by jar
    01-29-2007 9:54 AM


    Re: First off GOD is NOT the Biblical God (or Biblical Gods even)
    IF God exists, God surely meant for us to use our brains. I won't limit God to the Biblical God either, but as you know much of my understanding and interpretation comes from there.
    I fear that by reading every book (every map) it will only confuse me as I explore the territory. I suppose that God is right here with me, however...so I need not worry.
    Some scientists would maintain that in a philosophical discussion such as this, defining God places limitations on speculations, theories, and beliefs. How can we define love, omnipotence, and unbounded majesty?
    As Paul K points out, nailing down a definition only brings glory to ourselves...and not to God.
    I believe, in the final analysis, that we are all free to voice our opinions and beliefs...no matter how silly, trivial, or inane. Whatever will be already is, anyway.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 122 by jar, posted 01-29-2007 9:54 AM jar has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 133 by Greatest I am, posted 01-30-2007 9:26 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024