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Author Topic:   Has anyone seen god?
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 60 (159338)
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


This is a topic I am putting together in order to address a discussion that came up in a talk between myself and Angel concerning the biblical contradictions present in the question she raised in How Can Trinity Believers Explain This.Hence the title.

I resonded there by posting this

Gen.12:7
"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."

Gen.18:1
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."

Gen.26:2
"And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.

Gen.26:24
"And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."

Gen.32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Gen.35:1
"And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."

Gen.35:7
"And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."

Gen.35:9
"And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."

Gen.48:3
"And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."

Ex.3:16
"The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."

Ex.4:5
"That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."

Ex.6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."

Ex.24:9-11
"Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."

Ex.33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."

Ex.33:23
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."

Num.14:14
"For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face."

Dt.5:4
"The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."

Dt.34:10
"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face."

Jg.13:22
"And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God."

1 Kg.22:19
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."

Job 42:5
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

Ps.63.2
"To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."

Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."

Is.6:5
"For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Ezek.20:35
"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."

Am.7:7
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."

Am.9:1
"I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."

Hab.3:3-5
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."

The jist of the rest of our discussion centered around her disputing that these verses meant that anyone has seen the face of god.I maintain that these verses not only state that god has been seen face to face but that by being seen at all the bible contradicts itself as evidenced here.

Ex.33:20
"Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me and live."

Jn.1:18
"No man hath seen God at any time."

Jn.6:46
"Not that any man hath seen the Father."

1 Tim.1:17
"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honor and glory for ever and ever."

1 Tim.6:16
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see."

1 Jn.4:12
"No man hath seen God at any time."

I would invite not only Angel but others who wish to explain this and allow us to see how this plays out.


"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 11-14-2004 12:09 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-14-2004 12:29 PM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 9 by Zachariah, posted 11-15-2004 3:13 AM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 11 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:49 AM sidelined has not yet responded
 Message 12 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:52 AM sidelined has responded

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 60 (159339)
11-14-2004 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


topic moved by AdminJar.


How pierceful grows the hazy yon! How myrtle petaled thou! For spring hath sprung the cyclotron How high browse thou, brown cow? -- Churchy LaFemme, 1950

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2004 12:07 PM sidelined has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 3 of 60 (159343)
11-14-2004 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


Did Jesus have a face?
If Jesus was God, then wouldn't looking Jesus in the face be equivelant to looking God in the face?

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by sidelined, posted 11-14-2004 12:07 PM sidelined has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 5 by Thugpreacha, posted 11-14-2004 5:49 PM Brian has responded
 Message 8 by Zachariah, posted 11-15-2004 3:09 AM Brian has responded
 Message 57 by Buzsaw, posted 01-30-2007 4:19 PM Brian has responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 60 (159405)
11-14-2004 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
11-14-2004 12:29 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
go post that one in the trinity thread, i'm sure it'd help a little.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13191
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 60 (159422)
11-14-2004 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
11-14-2004 12:29 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Brian writes:

If Jesus was God, then wouldn't looking Jesus in the face be equivelant to looking God in the face?


I am outside. The sunlight is on my face. If the light comes from the Sun, would not the light upon my skin be equivalent to having the Sun touching me? What do you think, Brian?

I will admit that you have a good question here, sidelined. I need to ask some of the ministers what THEY think about it. Good one, old chap.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-14-2004 12:29 PM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:20 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 60 (159508)
11-15-2004 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
11-14-2004 4:31 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Arachnophilia

Actually this topic started out of a discussion between Angel and I in that very thread where she rightfully told me not to continue because it was off topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by arachnophilia, posted 11-14-2004 4:31 PM arachnophilia has responded

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 7 of 60 (159515)
11-15-2004 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by sidelined
11-15-2004 12:09 AM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
haha ok nm.

This message is a reply to:
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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 60 (159571)
11-15-2004 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Brian
11-14-2004 12:29 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Brian, I thought it says that noone will see God the Father's face. Moses didn't even get to see his face. He made him turn away when He passed by so that he (Moses) only saw His back. We do get to see the face of God the Son, we do not get to see the face of God the Father. What do you think -Z

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 Message 3 by Brian, posted 11-14-2004 12:29 PM Brian has responded

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Zachariah
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 60 (159572)
11-15-2004 3:13 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


I have always heard (like I was saying to Brian in the previous post) when it refers to not seeing the face it is referring to God the Father. When we see Him face to face it is refer to times with Yeshua the Messiah....God the Son. We just have to check the context carefully and make sure we got it correct. Ther are no contradictions in the bible just misunderstanding on our part. %) -Z

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 294 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 10 of 60 (159585)
11-15-2004 3:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Zachariah
11-15-2004 3:13 AM


what about in genesis where god repeatedly appears to the patriarchs?

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Angel
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 60 (159608)
11-15-2004 4:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


Gen.12:7
"And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him."
Gen.17:1
"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him...."
Gen.18:1
"And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre."

Gen.26:2
"And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of.

Gen.26:24
"And the LORD appeared unto him the same night, and said, I am the God of Abraham thy father: fear not."

Gen.35:1
"And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother."

Gen.35:7
"And he built there an altar, and called the place Elbethel: because there God appeared unto him, when he fled from the face of his brother."

Gen.35:9
"And God appeared unto Jacob again, when he came out of Padanaram, and blessed him."

Gen.48:3
"And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan."

Ex.3:16
"The LORD God ... appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you."

Ex.4:5
"That they may believe that the LORD God ... hath appeared unto thee."

Ex.6:3
"And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob...."

Ex.24:9-11
"Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel ... They saw God, and did eat and drink."

1 Kg.22:19
"I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left."

Job 42:5
"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."

Ps.63.2
"To see thy power and they glory, so as I have seen thee in the sanctuary."

Is.6:1
"In the year that King Ussiah died, I saw, also, the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up."

Is.6:5
"For mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts."

Am.7:7
"The LORD stood upon a wall made by a plumbline, with a plumbline in his hand."

Am.9:1
"I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake."

Hab.3:3-5
"God came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran .... He had horns coming out of his hand."


These above all refer to an appearance, so I will omit these, because they do not even come close to mentioning seeing His face. Which leaves us with these below.
Gen.32:30
"And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."

Ex.33:11
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend."

Ex.33:23
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts."

Num.14:14
"For they have heard that thou Lord art among this people, that thou Lord art seen face to face."

Dt.5:4
"The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire."

Dt.34:10
"And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face."

Ezek.20:35
"And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face."

Gen.32:30~~~ If you read the whole chapter, you would notice at the beginning where it says angels of the Lord, following on, in his dreams he wrestles with a man. Which gives him the mental vision of seeing God. Unless you prefer to think that he really did wrestle with God in the flesh in Genesis?

.
Ex.33:11~~~Ex.33:23~~~ These two should explain what it meant to see God 'face to face'. How can he not see Gods face, but see it at the same time. Again, read the whole chapter. Just because it says face to face, doesn't mean that they were standing looking into each others face, and if you were to read the whole chapter, you could see that. Even metaphorically speaking, you still have to say that if he seen His face it would be a contradiction within itself.

.
Num.14:14~~~ Seems you omitted the rest of this verse, let me state the whole thing, and then I will explain.

14: and they will tell the inhabitants of this land. They have heard that thou, O LORD, art in the midst of this people; for thou, O LORD, art seen face to face, and thy cloud stands over them and thou goest before them, in a pillar of cloud by day and in a pillar of fire by night.

He appears to them face to face (figuratively). He actually appeared to them as a cloud by day, and a fire by night. So that they know that He is there, so they are seeing 'face to face'.

.
Dt.5:4~~~ You see where it says out of the midst of fire? That means he appeared as a midst of fire, not by showing His face.

.
Dt.34:10~~~This is speaking of Moses. Now if you can explain face to face, meaning anything other than a close personal relationship after reading the following passages from Exodus 33, please let me know.

12: Moses said to the LORD, "See, thou sayest to me, `Bring up this people'; but thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, `I know you by name, and you have also found favor in my sight.'
13: Now therefore, I pray thee, if I have found favor in thy sight, show me now thy ways, that I may know thee and find favor in thy sight. Consider too that this nation is thy people."
14: And he said, "My presence will go with you, and I will give you rest."
15: And he said to him, "If thy presence will not go with me, do not carry us up from here.
16: For how shall it be known that I have found favor in thy sight, I and thy people? Is it not in thy going with us, so that we are distinct, I and thy people, from all other people that are upon the face of the earth?"
17: And the LORD said to Moses, "This very thing that you have spoken I will do; for you have found favor in my sight, and I know you by name."
18: Moses said, "I pray thee, show me thy glory."
19: And he said, "I will make all my goodness pass before you, and will proclaim before you my name `The LORD'; and I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
20: But," he said, "you cannot see my face; for man shall not see me and live."
21: And the LORD said, "Behold, there is a place by me where you shall stand upon the rock;
22: and while my glory passes by I will put you in a cleft of the rock, and I will cover you with my hand until I have passed by;
23: then I will take away my hand, and you shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen."

.
Ezek 20:35~~~ ties into the verses following it, which I explained above. (In the wilderness)


Angel

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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:03 AM Angel has responded
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Angel
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 60 (159612)
11-15-2004 4:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
11-14-2004 12:07 PM


Also, I would like to note that I never said that no one ever seen God, I said the face of God, there is a big difference, and I think you should have mentioned that.


Angel

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 13 of 60 (159618)
11-15-2004 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by Angel
11-15-2004 4:49 AM


Peniel
Hi Angel,

Gen.32:30~~~ If you read the whole chapter, you would notice at the beginning where it says angels of the Lord, following on, in his dreams he wrestles with a man. Which gives him the mental vision of seeing God. Unless you prefer to think that he really did wrestle with God in the flesh in Genesis?

I prefer to interpret that verse as Jacob fighting with God as he named the place where this happened 'Peniel' which means 'Face of God'/'God's Face'.

I believe that Jacob verifies that he saw God's face when he adds that he has called the place Peniel.

This is further qualified by Jacob when he states that the place is called Peniel because: It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

This appears to suggest that Jacob believed that if anyone sees God face to face then they will die, but as he has saw God's face and is spared then he is thankful.

There would be no reason for Jacob to qualify the naming if he had not seen God's face.

Is there some problem caused if someone has seen God's face and lived?

Does this really make a difference to anything?

Cheers.

Brian.


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 Message 11 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:49 AM Angel has responded

Replies to this message:
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Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 14 of 60 (159623)
11-15-2004 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Zachariah
11-15-2004 3:09 AM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Hi Z,

It was just a thought I had really, if Jesus was God then many people saw his face, thus they saw God's face.

We do get to see the face of God the Son, we do not get to see the face of God the Father.

If they are one and the same then is it at least possible that Jesus' face is indeed God's face?

I personally do not see what all the fuss is about.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Zachariah, posted 11-15-2004 3:09 AM Zachariah has not yet responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3275 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 60 (159624)
11-15-2004 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Thugpreacha
11-14-2004 5:49 PM


Re: Did Jesus have a face?
Hi Phat,

I am outside. The sunlight is on my face. If the light comes from the Sun, would not the light upon my skin be equivalent to having the Sun touching me? What do you think, Brian?

Sounds fine to me.

brian.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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