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Author Topic:   Has anyone seen god?
sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 60 (159635)
11-15-2004 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Angel
11-15-2004 4:52 AM


Angel

It is true that you made mention of the fact that no one has seen gods face and you do make your case with Moses{albeit weakly}However the OP in this thread has me stating this distinction.

The jist of the rest of our discussion centered around her disputing that these verses meant that anyone has seen the face of god.I maintain that these verses not only state that god has been seen face to face but that by being seen at all the bible contradicts itself as evidenced here.

I still maintain that face to face,if it is not a direct contradiction,at least should not be thus translated.The problem still remains,however,that a contradiction arises in the question which titles this topic.Has anyone seen god? This is the question that goes to the core of the bible as being an inerrent book.The writers of the book are certain of the points they make yet they dispute each other in this and many other points.


"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
--Don Hirschberg

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 4:52 AM Angel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 5:30 PM sidelined has responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 60 (159637)
11-15-2004 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
11-15-2004 5:03 AM


Re: Peniel
Brian writes:

Is there some problem caused if someone has seen God's face and lived?

Does this really make a difference to anything?

Yes, it would make God a liar.

Hosea 12:2-5:

2 The LORD hath also a controversy with Judah, and will punish Jacob according to his ways; according to his doings will he recompense him.
3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:
4 Yea, he had power over the angel, and prevailed: he wept, and made supplication unto him: he found him in Bethel, and there he spake with us;
5 Even the LORD God of hosts; the LORD is his memorial.
Emphasis mine.

Hosea indicates that the man that Jacob wrestled with was an angel.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:03 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 9:56 AM dpardo has responded

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 3272 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 18 of 60 (159667)
11-15-2004 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dpardo
11-15-2004 8:02 AM


But God does lie.
Hi Dpardo,

But Genesis 32 contradicts Hosea, it is clearly not an angel that Jacob wrestles with, there is no mention of an angel in the Genesis reference, if it was an angel then why name the area Peniel?

Hosea doesnt actually mention a 'man' at all in his text, and the context of the Genesis quote does not make sense if it was an angel.

Look at the context:

26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [5] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

There is no mention of an angel in this encounter, and I do not see how an angel could bless anyone.

Why would Jacob say he saw God face to face if he had been fighting an angel?

The name change to 'Israel' is directly linked to this encounter as well.

As for God being a liar, what is the big deal about that?

The Bible informs us that God does tell lies. He sends false prophest to test Israel's faithfulness, amongst other things.

Deuteronomy 13:1-3

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.

A prophet is simply a man or woman who speaks God's words, God invariably puts the words in their mouth, a la Moses.

The above verse tells us that God will send a prophet to deliberately mislead Israel to test her loyalty. The prophet will announce a sign or wonder that will come to pass, but the prophet will say it is in the name of another God. The mention of the wonder being done in the name of another god is a lie, the sign would have been from Yahweh and Yahweh told the prophet to say it was in some other god's name. Thus God is a known liar, no big deal in ancient near eastern literature.

If Yahweh is to be considered a god then He needs to be able to do anything, including telling lies.

There is also the possibility that it was Hosea who was the liar, if it is a lie that is. After all, it was Hosea who allegedly wrote the text, although this has to be taken on faith.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dpardo, posted 11-15-2004 8:02 AM dpardo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 11-15-2004 11:10 AM Brian has not yet responded
 Message 20 by dpardo, posted 11-15-2004 2:28 PM Brian has not yet responded

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 290 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 19 of 60 (159693)
11-15-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
11-15-2004 9:56 AM


Re: But God does lie.
But Genesis 32 contradicts Hosea, it is clearly not an angel that Jacob wrestles with

there is nothing clear about genesis 32. if it's meant to be god, he's refered to as a man.

There is no mention of an angel in this encounter, and I do not see how an angel could bless anyone.

nor does it actually say he was wrestling with god in that particular instance. although the implication is there with the naming of the place. and angels can bless people like anyone else.

The Bible informs us that God does tell lies. He sends false prophest to test Israel's faithfulness, amongst other things.

quote:
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

and my favourite

quote:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

quote:
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

quote:
Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years,

If Yahweh is to be considered a god then He needs to be able to do anything, including telling lies.

agreed. i have no problem with it. but people who would hold god to morals set forth for people really get uncomfortable when you tell them that god lies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 9:56 AM Brian has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 20 of 60 (159779)
11-15-2004 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Brian
11-15-2004 9:56 AM


Re: But God does lie.
Hi Brian!

You wrote:

But Genesis 32 contradicts Hosea, it is clearly not an angel that Jacob wrestles with, there is no mention of an angel in the Genesis reference, if it was an angel then why name the area Peniel?

Hosea doesnt actually mention a 'man' at all in his text, and the context of the Genesis quote does not make sense if it was an angel.

Look at the context:

26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak."
But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
27 The man asked him, "What is your name?"
"Jacob," he answered.
28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, [5] because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome."
29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name."
But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there.

The answer to that is that Jacob probably thought that it was actually God.

There are several incidents of mistakes by bible characters, such as:

In Matthew 11:11-15 Jesus says:

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

But, in John 1:19-21, John denies that he is Elijah:

19 ¶ And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

This indicates that John did not know that he, in fact, was Elijah.

Also, in John 20:14, Mary was talking to Jesus and didn't know it was him:

14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

quote:
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul.


A prophet is simply a man or woman who speaks God's words, God invariably puts the words in their mouth, a la Moses.

The above verse tells us that God will send a prophet to deliberately mislead Israel to test her loyalty.

I think you're assuming too much here. Where does it say in that quote that God will send a prophet as you suggest? He may have allowed the prophet to speak thusly but God did not send him.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 9:56 AM Brian has not yet responded

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 60 (159792)
11-15-2004 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by arachnophilia
11-15-2004 11:10 AM


Re: But God does lie.
Hi Arachnophilia!

You wrote:

quote:

1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

I addressed this in another thread. The preceding verses shed some light on this incident:

1Kings 22:18-23 says:

18 And the king of Israel said unto Jehoshaphat, Did I not tell thee that he would prophesy no good concerning me, but evil?
19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

We see here that the whole incident is a vision of Micaiah in which he sees a spirit come forth and declare to God that he will go forth and be a lying spirit in the mouth of Ahab's (unGodly) prophets. Micaiah tells Ahab that his false prophets are lying to him.

and my favourite

quote:

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

quote:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

quote:

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years,

Adam did not finish dying in that day, but he began to die.

By virtue of the fact that Adam and Eve were no longer allowed to eat of the tree of life, they started the process of dying and eventually did die. The "fruit" of the tree of life apparently staved off the death process.

Genesis 3:22-24 says:

22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by arachnophilia, posted 11-15-2004 11:10 AM arachnophilia has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by arachnophilia, posted 11-15-2004 9:34 PM dpardo has responded
 Message 33 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 9:42 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2240 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 22 of 60 (159813)
11-15-2004 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Angel
11-15-2004 4:49 AM


i would prefer to believe that jacob actually wrestled with god.

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Replies to this message:
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dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 60 (159837)
11-15-2004 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by macaroniandcheese
11-15-2004 3:36 PM


Brennakimi writes:

i would prefer to believe that jacob actually wrestled with god.

It sounds more interesting that way!

But, God is a spirit.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by macaroniandcheese, posted 11-15-2004 3:36 PM macaroniandcheese has responded

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Angel
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 60 (159877)
11-15-2004 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Brian
11-15-2004 5:03 AM


Re: Peniel
Hi Brian,

This presents a problem, if God was on land, as a man, because you would have to have a body to wrestle, I would assume. So if you take this literally, it would present a problem with Jesus being the Only Begotten, wouldn't it? If God was in the flesh then, thousands of years earlier, where does Jesus fit in? It is meant to be metaphoric for the same reasons that it is assumed that Elijah assended into heaven in a chariot, if you were to study those verses you would see that he actually went up in a whirlwind. But, back to the point. The chapter repeats the fact that it happens at night, or in a dream, and obviously when we dream we are not physically wresting with someone, at least not in mine.


Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Brian, posted 11-15-2004 5:03 AM Brian has responded

Replies to this message:
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Angel
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 60 (159879)
11-15-2004 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by sidelined
11-15-2004 7:48 AM


Sidelined,

It is true that you made mention of the fact that no one has seen gods face and you do make your case with Moses{albeit weakly}

Well, I am glad that you finally understand my position, but seeing as how it is weak, maybe you should clarify for us, exactly how you would prove and/or disprove it? Do not just state scripture, anyone can read the Bible, please, let us know your interpretations for the passages.
I still maintain that face to face,if it is not a direct contradiction,at least should not be thus translated.

Good! When I mentioned contradiction before, I was referring to when you referred to Moses seeing God face to face literally, but within the same post, said that God said he couldn't see His face. Face to face isn't a contradiction, it is simply a figurative phrase.

The problem still remains,however,that a contradiction arises in the question which titles this topic.Has anyone seen god?

Well, I think that it is clear by any account that God has appeared, though Moses didn't see His face, he did see Him, for example.


Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 7:48 AM sidelined has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 6:03 PM Angel has responded
 Message 34 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:44 PM Angel has responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2240 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 26 of 60 (159886)
11-15-2004 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by dpardo
11-15-2004 4:23 PM


so you say...

early in the bible he is more body than spirit. first he walks with adam in the garden, then he walks with enoch and then he wrestles with jacob. he changes around moses' time. i think it was rather the religion that changed ... the interpretation of god.

but i'd say that god could have a body if he wanted to and you should stop keeping him in a box. if he says he walked or wrestled then that is what he did. and i don't buy the "philosophical" interpretation. nonsense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by dpardo, posted 11-15-2004 4:23 PM dpardo has not yet responded

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 27 of 60 (159897)
11-15-2004 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Angel
11-15-2004 5:30 PM


Angel writes:

Well, I think that it is clear by any account that God has appeared, though Moses didn't see His face, he did see Him, for example.

If i'm understand sidelined (and the quotes offered) correctly, the argument is that if any part of god is seen then the bible contradicts itself, as several of those quotes clearly say that it is impossible for anyone to see any part of god.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 5:30 PM Angel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 6:08 PM happy_atheist has responded
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Angel
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 60 (159899)
11-15-2004 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by happy_atheist
11-15-2004 6:03 PM


Happy,

That may be this topic, but sidelined was confused by what I had said in an earlier topic, so I was explaining to her. The whole concept of this topic was founded on my saying that no one had seen God's face. So I attempted to explain both to her, 'kill two birds with one stone'.


Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 6:03 PM happy_atheist has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 7:22 PM Angel has responded
 Message 35 by sidelined, posted 11-15-2004 10:54 PM Angel has responded

  
happy_atheist
Member (Idle past 3226 days)
Posts: 326
Joined: 08-21-2004


Message 29 of 60 (159923)
11-15-2004 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Angel
11-15-2004 6:08 PM


Ah sorry, i'm totally unaware of anything that has been said in the other topic

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 6:08 PM Angel has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Angel, posted 11-15-2004 8:05 PM happy_atheist has not yet responded

  
Angel
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 60 (159933)
11-15-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by happy_atheist
11-15-2004 7:22 PM


No problem, I see the confusion, and probably should have said that on the post that you replied to.


Angel

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by happy_atheist, posted 11-15-2004 7:22 PM happy_atheist has not yet responded

  
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