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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 308 (449662)
01-18-2008 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
01-18-2008 8:30 AM


Re: Understanding the basics
Stile writes:
Is Christianity honourable?By honour, I mean "that which tries to help those less-fortunate and looks for nothing in return".
Phat writes:
It can be. I would imagine that each of us does many honorable things and a few less-than-honorable things on a daily basis.
The part about helping the poor and your neighbours, yes.
The part about joining the religion (accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or otherwise) in order to gain salvation... no.
And, one can help others without joining the religion.
Phat writes:
Its not a matter of joining a religion. Its a matter of a daily relationship...through prayer...with Jesus Christ. One may ask "Is This Necessary?" No, but the idea of helping others and trying to be the good guy on our own is in its own way veiled pride.
If I find it honourable to receive a gift only when it's not asked for, and Christianity insists that I ask for God's forgiveness in order to receive salvation... am I doomed to Hell for trying to be honourable?
The gift was given to all regardless of whether we asked for it or not. Of course you don't have to get to know God through Jesus Christ if you honestly believe in your heart that you don't want to make a big show of it...but you may well meet Him anyway.
Stile writes:
Is there any religion that does not give a reward for joining and focuses more on being honourable?
.... so ask yourself what it is that you truly want. Do you want to live as honorably as you possibly can, without all the trappings of exclusivity? If so, there is no one stopping you.
All that I am saying is that you may well meet God in the process whether you sought to meet Him or not. And yes, it is honorable to do good simply for the idea that its the right thing to do and expecting no rewards in the process.
Stile writes:
The point is, why does one need to declare oneself to be "Christian", or as is more popular "accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour" in order to receive the gift of salvation?
Perhaps a better question would be this: IF God exists and IF Jesus Christ is eternally Gods human incarnation, would it be honorable to avoid meeting Him, should the opportunity arise? In other words, would you climb a tree to avoid having to deal with Him face to face, should the opportunity ever realistically or even symbolically present itself?
Stile writes:
My point is... I find it personally dishonourable to ask for such a magnificent gift. I feel that if God is giving these gifts out, He can give them to whoever he'd like. If I'm one he'd like to give it to, then great. If not, I'm sorry I wasn't good enough. Am I doomed to hell because of the way I am?
In my opinion, no. You seem to have a wonderful outlook on things.
My only point was this:
Don't go out of your way to seek the gift, but don't avoid it if it comes knocking at your door, either.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

"All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 8:30 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:46 PM Phat has replied
 Message 39 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 8:49 AM Phat has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 308 (449665)
01-18-2008 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-18-2008 4:46 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Ok Ok, point taken.
I have a question for you, though.
Jar writes:
In all honesty, no one has a clue whether they are saved or not even if something like an afterlife does happen to exist. We might hope for such a thing, perhaps even hope fervently, but if we are honest we gotta admit we ain't got a clue.
Do you believe that Jesus existed and that He died for everyone? (Not just those who believe in Him)
And BTW you can only honestly speak for yourself in saying that you don't have a clue. How would we honestly know if anyone else had a clue or not? Do you despise exclusivity that much?
Edited by Phat, : added features

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:46 PM jar has replied

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 Message 32 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 5:13 PM Phat has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 308 (449882)
01-19-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
01-18-2008 5:13 PM


It May Be Honorable To Question
I will admit that it is honorable to question what we have been taught.
You have steadfastly and continually articulated your beliefs here at EvC, and have provided reasonable support for these beliefs.
I, on the other hand, have continually reread and pondered the dogma of others...only recently showing any signs of original thought on the matter. I never had the opportunity to have my beliefs challenged and questioned and thrown onto the wrestling mat of logic, reason, and reality. (Except with my debates with you! )
Some questions which spring to my mind:
  • Why would GOD be unconcerned if we actually believed in Her or not?
    Surely an omnipotent Being would be more than capable of a personal relationship with every living thing in the universe. I was always taught that the communion between God and Man is sacred, in fact.
  • Is the purpose of Jesus Christ, in your opinion, merely to be the role of a great moral teacher? The lesson of GOD becoming man should emphasize the life of Christ as well as the death of Christ, but the majority of Christianity maintains that this overcoming of death was highly important and significant. Do you gloss over it as irrelevant?
    Of course, its illogical to presuppose that GOD could ever die and come back to life, but the implications of His human character doing so seems to me to be a sacrificial blessing for humanity.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 5:13 PM jar has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 49 of 308 (450249)
    01-21-2008 12:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 45 by ICANT
    01-21-2008 10:28 AM


    Marketing the product
    It seemsto me as if you are trying to market a product(relationship with God=salvation) that nobody wants to buy. You then tell them that if they don't wish to buy the product you will give it to them. They graciously refuse your offer and so you say "oh well! Lake of Fire for you! Have fun!"
    Perhaps you can be a better salesman and tell them in practical terms (not Biblically metaphorical live forever in paradise terms)
    why they would be better off accepting this personal relationship with Jesus.
    Stile seems to feel that he just wants to be left alone and that he himself will do the best he can in life. WWJD? What would Jesus say to Stile?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM ICANT has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 57 of 308 (450286)
    01-21-2008 1:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 56 by Stile
    01-21-2008 1:49 PM


    Re: What is honourable?
    I maintain that if a truth seeker such as yourself were to honestly conclude that the Bible was not the final word on honor and/or relationship with God, that you would be doing the best that you could.
    Why then would you be liable?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 56 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 1:49 PM Stile has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 70 of 308 (450348)
    01-21-2008 4:59 PM
    Reply to: Message 66 by Stile
    01-21-2008 4:35 PM


    A Side Comment
    I have a little side comment that is hopefully not off topic:
    IF God foreknows us, created us, and knows every quirk and idiosyncrasy of human nature that we have, would He not then know that we would be likely to have discussions such as this and ask honest questions about the validity of His instructions? (Even questioning the validity of the instructions themselves?)
    Is not honor equitable with honesty? And again....if we were a defective product and He foreknew that many of us would reject blind faith, why the whole lake of fire gig? Why not simply have us cease to exist once we die? After all, He is God and is capable of anything, right?
    Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 4:35 PM Stile has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 83 of 308 (450517)
    01-22-2008 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 81 by jar
    01-22-2008 10:41 AM


    All God Needs To Do...
    Jar writes:
    All GOD needs to do is NOT damn someone. No actions are required on the part of the person NOT damned.
    So what happens to the Goats? Who damns them?
    NIV writes:
    Matt 25:41-43
    41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 148 of 308 (450987)
    01-25-2008 11:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 145 by Stile
    01-25-2008 10:13 AM


    Re: Honour in honesty[qs=Stile]My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current
    Stile writes:
    My current position isn't "I'm an atheist". My current position is "I'm going to be honest with myself and the reasoning skills I possess". This leads me to questioning God's existence. And I certainly don't want to convince myself I'm going to be OK if I'm sincere and do good.
    Thats interesting. I agree with the first part but don't quite understand the second part. If I do the best I can, what more is there? (Of course, I believe that it is not so much a matter of trying as it is a matter of trusting.God ultimately has veto power, obviously.)
    Stile writes:
    If I follow honesty, and get to God and He says "You were supposed to believe in me". I'll say "oh, sorry, I wasn't smart enough to figure that out". And then I'll go to Hell.
    See... if I got sent to Hell, it would make me mad. Everything within my internal logic and reasoning capacity suggests that it would be far fairer for me to simply cease to exist, were I not worthy of Gods promotion.
    I will agree that His logic trumps my logic, however.
    Stile writes:
    I'm not expecting honesty to be good enough for God, I just don't see any other verifiable option.
    To me, honesty before God = surrender. Thats where we all agree, in a way.
    As I formulate my ideas in this post, and after reading what I CAN'T and IANO have to say, I think that a point of contention concerning honor among Christians focuses on the Accuracy of the perceived God of the Bible versus the God that we all think we have a relationship with. I for one am unafraid to question the Bible.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 145 by Stile, posted 01-25-2008 10:13 AM Stile has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 155 of 308 (451034)
    01-25-2008 6:27 PM
    Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
    01-25-2008 6:16 PM


    Re: Honour in honesty
    ICANT writes:
    I believe what God inspired the writers to record was perfect. God is honorable and wants us to have the truth so we can make the right decisions.
    I used to believe that since that is what I was taught. I now am unsure. There are many logical arguments that expose the flaws of a word for word literal Bible.
    ICANT writes:
    I have to believe that God is honorable enough to make sure the truth is available to me.
    I agree. And I believe that if I seek the truth with all of the humility and trust that I can muster, I shall find it...(or rather,He shall find me)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 154 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:16 PM ICANT has replied

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     Message 157 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:50 PM Phat has replied

    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 158 of 308 (451041)
    01-25-2008 6:50 PM
    Reply to: Message 156 by ICANT
    01-25-2008 6:32 PM


    Re: Understanding the basics
    ICANT writes:
    So if the information I have is correct I can say with 100% certainty that I am correct.
    The only problem is that the only way we know the information is correct is because the information itself affirms that it is correct.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 156 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:32 PM ICANT has not replied

    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 159 of 308 (451043)
    01-25-2008 7:01 PM
    Reply to: Message 157 by ICANT
    01-25-2008 6:50 PM


    Re: Honour in honesty
    ICANT writes:
    What I am saying is God is a honorable God. There have been many honorable men that God has used through the ages to preserve His Word for us. Is it perfect? By no stretch of the imagination. But with the leadership of the Holy Spirit to guide us through the maze we can find the truth.
    So how do we know who has this Holy Spirit and who doesn't?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 157 by ICANT, posted 01-25-2008 6:50 PM ICANT has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 225 of 308 (453895)
    02-04-2008 4:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 224 by ICANT
    02-04-2008 4:00 PM


    The Guy On The Street Corner
    I have a question. (This relates to honour, I am sure of it! )
    Say that one day in a busy city, a guy on a street corner was handing out free Bibles. He said to anyone and everyone who passed by, "Take this book and read it! It contains the answer for your problems."
    OK...say that one passerby saw the free offer, noticed that the guy was polite enough and seemed as honest as he could be, yet decided for whatever reason not to take that book and read it.
    By dishonoring the offer, would this passerby miss out on the answer?
    If so, is that honorable on Gods part?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 224 by ICANT, posted 02-04-2008 4:00 PM ICANT has replied

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    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18262
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.1


    Message 226 of 308 (453896)
    02-04-2008 4:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 223 by Stile
    02-04-2008 3:02 PM


    Stile writes:
    I don't think it would be an efficient use of resources to try and stop the large-mouthed spreaders. There seems to be an unending supply, and their work is quick. I think the best method is an attempt to provide an honest alternative that those who are searching for truth can judge using their own merits.
    What type of honest alternative would you have in mind?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 223 by Stile, posted 02-04-2008 3:02 PM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
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